123 Ignition confusion... - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-08-2017, 08:58 AM
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When I spoke to the tuner on the day, he said that he tried the 40-43 degree advance suggested in the manual but the results were poor. The current settings are -12 deg at idle and -33deg at 5000 rpm.
Your ignition curve is similar to my 2L Spider which made 169 HP at 6200 rpm on pump gas and 40DCOE Webers. I just wondered if you tried a couple of degrees more.
There is an ABB member who recently built a 2L Nord motor for another ABB member using cams supplied by a third ABB member, that made 230 HP @ 7000 rpm. It has the original type 123 distributor running the D curve.

Ed Prytherch
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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-11-2017, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Gubi View Post
Man, that's crazy retarded at idle. But you can't fix that with the base 123. That's why the tune version is a better option.

Tom Sahines posted the below on the 750/101 forum. Note that the octane values he states are PON and are about 5 less than Australian RON.

I guess if it idles okay you're sorta fine, but -12 at idle is definitely suboptimal.

"I have evaluated the early 123 distributors and come to the conclusion that there are no good usable curves. The early 123 distributors simply copied many of the original Alfa curves which are no longer appropriate. Remeber that when those curves were designed pump gas was more like 95 octane vs the 91 octane we can get today. My dyno work has shown that with today's gas 36 to 38 degrees of total advance is optimum. Most all of the motors I build want to have 6 to 8 degrees of initial advance for a good idle and off idle performance. As noted when you add the 37 degrees of advance from the 123 built in curves you end up with about 44 degrees of total advance. At that level you will have engine knock and damage will occur. The only option is to use a high octane race fuel or set the maximum advance to 38 degrees and live with a crappy idle."
Hi Gubi,

The idle is perfect, at around 800-900rpm steady and the car starts with a half turn of the key without choke in the mornings (preceded by four or five pumps of the throttle). My friend who has a tarmac rally 1750 can't believe how well it drives.

Cheers,
Wazza.

"horsepower sells cars - torque wins races".
1969 MK1 1750 GTV
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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-11-2017, 03:51 AM
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PS. I only run the car on 98 octane which is available in all of the servo's in Oz.

Wazza.

"horsepower sells cars - torque wins races".
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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-11-2017, 06:16 AM
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The idle is perfect, at around 800-900rpm steady and the car starts with a half turn of the key without choke in the mornings (preceded by four or five pumps of the throttle). My friend who has a tarmac rally 1750 can't believe how well it drives.
Another example of real world experience contradicting a deduced scenario.

Ed Prytherch
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76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-13-2017, 01:37 PM
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I recently bought the 123+ Bluetooth version.

We fitted it at the Dyno and then set the curve according to what the engine wanted via IPad.

Instructions very basic in leaflet.
It implys that you need to search for the 123 in 'settings' on Bluetooth. It never found it, but on opening app it connected. Wasted 30 mins trying to find it through settings on various devices. They need to Make it clear that you can see the 123 from just opening app.

Does not detail anywhere that you can press and hold a new timing entry to then move it to a new position. I assumed it dropped in the bottom position only so had to rewrite the sequence every time. But you can drag to a mid position.

Every time you flick to another app or programme it seems to disconnect from the 123. Not helpful.

Especially when the advice on how To record a curve is to screen shot it, so switching between the app and the taken screen shot, means the 123 disconnects every time you view the screen shot in photos. Not clever in real world whilst on Dyno.

When driving with 123 app dashboard active, take a call. Finish call. GPS speedo no longer works.

Number signal of 'tuned' adjustment needs to be displayed, not just on live dial. When on a Dyno run and making adjustments on the Dyno, it's VERY difficult to make a not of the number you finally settled on at a given rev range.

Still haven't figured out how to load a 2nd curve.....seems no instructions on how to do this. And nothing in the leaflet.

Old 123 was loaded with about 16 curves to choose from. The blue tooth version appears only to have one !!!!

Ability to create curves 'offline' and then upload them when connected later would be good.

When purchasing one of these and having it fitted at a Dyno, where you are paying for the Dyno by the hour, with the above problems, and delays meant it was a very expensive Dyno session. My guy normally installs and Dyno sets up a standard 123 in 2 hours max. This took us 4 hours !!!! So 50% more of the price of the 123+ tune !!.

Overall happy with the results. But all the Bluetooth specific elements and the customer experience is a bit painful.

My curve started at 7deg for tick over, at zero it wouldn't tick over.
We topped out at 32 degrees of advance. That's what the lightly modified 1300 wanted.
Net result 125bhp. Was 122bhp prior to 123 and slightly bigger jets.

1989 Alfa 75 3.0V6 America - 1971 Alfa Giulia 1300 GT Junior - 1989 Alfa 75 3.0V6 Veloce - 2016 Merc C220 Estate - 2010 Volvo XC60 D5 Polestar
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post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-13-2017, 02:12 PM
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125hp at the wheels is rather good for a 1300.

Jim . . . '72 Super 1300, '70, 1750GTV, 2nd series,
'62, Lancia Flaminia Zagato3c, 2nd series
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post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-13-2017, 02:35 PM
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If you had used the "D" curve on the basic 123 then you would have had 11 degrees at idle which might have required you to back off the throttle stop a little.

I assume that 125 is calculated flywheel HP, which is still very good for a road car - 15 more than a 1300 GTA Jr.

Ed Prytherch
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76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke

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post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-13-2017, 11:05 PM
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Bluetooth version doesn't have a 2nd curve possibility, but USB-version has.

125hp with a real 1300cc non-GTA and only 'slightly' modified? I'd only believe with my own eyes. And would love to check the calibration of the Dyno.

No one should go unprepared to a dyno test session. Or pay the bill for hours lost. If fitting a new item, it has be done before the session and one needs to be used to that item instead of blaming the instruction. You want to play with Pro tools, be prepread like a Pro.

My opinion only.

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post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-14-2017, 06:48 AM
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its at the flywheel not wheels.

minor mods =
10.5 compression
extensive head work
larger valves
10548 cam
GTA style trumpets

other mods as well, but they dont help hp so not significant to list.

I had a 1.5 hour drive to the dyno, so didnt want to fit it before hand, unknown what curve it might or might not have. so elected for the safer version of fitting it there.

1989 Alfa 75 3.0V6 America - 1971 Alfa Giulia 1300 GT Junior - 1989 Alfa 75 3.0V6 Veloce - 2016 Merc C220 Estate - 2010 Volvo XC60 D5 Polestar
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post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-14-2017, 07:25 PM
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What transmission loss did you assume when you converted RWHP to crankshaft HP? The conservative number is 15% but 20% is good if you want to boost the number.
Here in the USA some dynos such as Dyno-mite have a reputation for giving conservative HP numbers and others such as dynojet are known for giving bigger numbers. Also dyno operators have the means to fudge the numbers. One problem is that many dyno's are owned by businesses that build special motors and it is good for them if the dyno is generous. I am fortunate in that I have friend who owns a dyno for his own use (he is a surgeon) and he has no interest in artificially boosted numbers.
A few years ago a guy over here bought a race motor from Alfaholics in the UK with a stated HP output but it made considerably less on a dyno over here. I think that it was Mike Besic's dyno. I know that Jim Steck does countless runs on his own engine dyno before he delivers a customer engine and then the car might go on Mike's dyno for comparison. It has become a standard of comparison for some of the US Alfa fraternity.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
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post #26 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-15-2017, 06:30 AM
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Dynos

Both Jim & Mike use the same dyno but the owner`s name I cant remember...

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RJR Racing

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post #27 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-15-2017, 06:44 AM
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Both Jim & Mike use the same dyno but the owner`s name I cant remember.
That is a chassis dyno, right? I have seen pictures of Jim's engine dyno.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
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