flywheel - to lighten or not - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 05:31 AM Thread Starter
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flywheel - to lighten or not

Trying to reach some kind of conclusion, I get the advantages it's the cons I'm sweating over. My biggest conceren is the car is a daily driver and is the driveability adversely affected to the point I'll get in another car? I don't want to have to excessively raise the revs and ride the clutch just to get off the line. Also is the life of the motor any shorter? Any thoughts/impressions would be greatly appreciated. Motor is probably putting out 150 ish hp and I have no idea torque wise but surely more than stock.
Also has anyone used the gapless top ring by Total Seal? I've pretty mucg decided to go that way on the motronic pistons.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
2017 Giulia Q4
74 GTV restored daily driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider

Last edited by gigem75; 03-24-2014 at 05:34 AM.
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post #2 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 07:55 AM
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I have RJ's lightened flywheels in my Spider and GTV6. There are no driveability problems and my wife drives the Spider which also has a springless friction disc, big cams and Webers.

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post #3 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 08:06 AM
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Much depends on how light you go, and your ability with a clutch. I have a GTA engine with a 9# Tilton / Autodelta aluminum flywheel that is no problem whatsoever on the street. I also run a custom built 7# wheel on another 1600 single plug in a reasonable state of tune on the street with no issues. That said, I also prefer solid center discs in my clutches that most are clueless as to how to launch.
Richard uses the same type disc without problems.
For a typical street user with limited experience with these wheels and discs, probably 9 to 11# is a reasonable weight with a street style spring center clutch. The lighter flywheel will save synchro's and add considerable engine power "feel" to the driving experience.
A now only use light aluminum wheels on all my mouse engine builds.
Just my opinion from my own experience.


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post #4 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 08:45 AM
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I purchased an aluminum flywheel a couple of years ago from Peter Tomashevski. Peter knows Alfas, does good work, made a quick turn-around, and his price included a new ring-gear. The only drawback is that the flywheel he sent me is almost too pretty to install in my Super. Now that we're finally getting around to building my hot-rod 2 liter, I may be able to report on how well it works. Watch this space . . .

Pay the extra money and get an aluminum flywheel.

Thanks for the tip, Gordon.

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post #5 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 10:26 AM
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Peters are superb. He made my 7# variation. He can make them in any weight, with any bolt pattern for any ring gear. Each is custom made and reasonably priced. If you have ever seen an iron wheel come apart at high rpm, and an aluminum wheel contain an exploding clutch, you will always choose aluminum. I do.


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post #6 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 11:35 AM
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+1 Peter did my flywheel as well, 6-bolt (2l) flange to 1600 ring gear (non-hydraulic clutch. FW weights half of stock, 11# and for driveablility, you wouldn't know it unless I told you. it has none of the urban myth shortcomings of a lightened flywheel, perfectly drivable in all conditions. I use my GTV as a 3-season daily driver.

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I purchased an aluminum flywheel a couple of years ago from Peter Tomashevski. Peter knows Alfas, does good work, made a quick turn-around, and his price included a new ring-gear. The only drawback is that the flywheel he sent me is almost too pretty to install in my Super. Now that we're finally getting around to building my hot-rod 2 liter, I may be able to report on how well it works. Watch this space . . .

Pay the extra money and get an aluminum flywheel.

Thanks for the tip, Gordon.

[email protected]

Stan Swanson, Eerie Erie, Colorado, '67 GTV (daily driver), '71 GTV (Kyle's), '91 164 (snow car), '56 Lotus 11(gone to Oz), '59 Cadillac M+M Hearse, '74 MGB
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post #7 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 12:17 PM
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X2. I have used the same Tilton Aluminum flywheel for 25+ years. In addition to benefit of lightness, another advantage is that the friction surface can be replaced when worn.

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Originally Posted by 180OUT View Post
...Pay the extra money and get an aluminum flywheel....


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post #8 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 12:20 PM
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Reference Total Seal rings, I wouldn't use anything else.

I typically use the gapless 2nd ring out of habit but the top ring will be fine as well. I don't really buy that there is any measurable advantage to it's location top or bottom location.

A caution: If you call Total Seal and ask for a ring set you will likely be provided a low tension oil ring. These don't work so well in the Alfa bores no matter how careful you are with the machine work. I insist on the standard tension oil rings.
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post #9 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 02:40 PM
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i was always unhappy with the sluggish response from my stock Spica motor when heel-toeing.

when i replaced the clutch, i had my stock flywheel lightened by a few pounds. it is recommended to not remove too much, or you could have a high rpm grenade by your feet. to be honest, i didn't notice much difference in engine response or drivability. was disappointed, and worried in the back of my mind of high rpm.

when i rebuilt the motor, tricked out, along with the gearbox with fresh synchros and lightened gears, i put on an aluminum flywheel from Spruell. following Paul's advice, i heated the flywheel in the oven so it would expand and fit onto the end of the crankshaft. the hot rod motor combined with the aluminum flywheel revs instantly, like a motorbike. plus, i still have no drivablity issues or need excess clutch slippage from a standstill. its also less mass for the starter motor to spin up.
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post #10 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 05:22 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks to all, great discussion. I ordered the flywheel from Sp today. Here's lookin at you kid Very interesting on the oil ring. Also ordered from Paul and I have no idea what oil ring comes with that set and have no clue how to tell. They are Motronics. I've had great sucess with the Hastings oil rings and have a set of new ones which I'll probably never use (knock on wood) and have thought about using the Hastings oil ring with the top two TS rings. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
2017 Giulia Q4
74 GTV restored daily driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
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post #11 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 06:19 PM
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I use the Hastings oil ring with one or two Total Seals depending on engine application. Remember that the idea of the Total Seal is to reduce non-power stroke frictional loss. Though the surface is hard the tension is soft except with power strokes. You may get a bit more oil consumption in some applications BUT you know where the oil is going and why and it is not a lot more oil used.
My opinion from my experience.


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post #12 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-24-2014, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gigem75 View Post
I've had great sucess with the Hastings
hasting's claim to fame is that they seat really good. people love em for that. i used them before, and they worked fine.

on my current engine, i tried total seal. Paul Spruell custom ordered the rings to fit my old school venolia pistons, and have no idea if the oil rings he specified are low tension or what. i followed the TS guide for the liner hone grit, and used their ring break-in lubricant. i did not baby them on break-in, and things worked out great. good compression and no oil consumption.

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post #13 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-25-2014, 06:05 AM
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Rings

Hastings is the ring builder for Total Seal oil control rings............

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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post #14 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-25-2014, 07:01 AM
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The oil rings you get from Spruel in a Total Seal set will be full tension and work great. My point was just that if you call Total Seal direct and tell them you are building a "race" or "high performance" engine or if you pick the set out by part number on the web yourself you might accidently get the low tension.

Also you run the gapless ring in the second groove OR they now make a different gapless ring specifically for the top groove. You would never run a gapless ring in both grooves.

That's interesting about ring manufacturers Richard. I also note that if I order gapless ring sets with custom Arias pistons (and sometimes JE) that I get rings with Total Seal part numbers in the same but unbranded boxes.
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post #15 of 61 (permalink) Old 03-25-2014, 07:54 AM Thread Starter
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I gathered one would not run gapless in both from how they are sold but it's certainly nice to know for sure. I was tempted to turn the od of the liners to a true circle leaving the flats on the bottom but since there are so many new varibles on this build that will have to wait. I cut the valve seats myself with the neway tools, 4 angles, 60, 45, 30, & 15 deg, the rings, the ring seating powder, (which may be overkill since I have been using Wes' s procedure but if it is then take another whack I don't mind as long as there's no smoke!). The valves stand up to highly compressed air so I have no doubt they seal. The lightened flywheel, and a new camshaft configuration all add up to a leave well enough alone insofar as messing with the liners goes. From all I've learned a good case can be made for both gapless in either groove, I chose the top simply because why not stop blowby before it gets past any ring but then again if it's in the second groove it doesn't have to work as hard.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
2017 Giulia Q4
74 GTV restored daily driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
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