Success!!! MegaSquirt n EDIS on 2.0L Alfa GTV - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-22-2006, 09:59 PM Thread Starter
 
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Success!!! MegaSquirt n EDIS on 2.0L Alfa GTV

Hello Alfa enthusiasts,

I just wanted to let you all know of our recent success with MegaSquirt on Group 2's 1974 Alfa Romeo GTV 2.0L. Group 2 first came to us with their GTV (with TWM throttle bodies installed) for engine management tuning. Group 2 utilized our experience of programmable engine management systems to set-up MegaSquirt for this application. MegaSquirt is a powerful system for the price and no other systems compare.

We setup MegaSquirt with the Ford EDIS ignition. This allowed us to use a coil-pack for wasted spark ignition. We wanted to setup the Alfa to be fun and enjoyable, so drivability was a high priority. Utilizing a Speed Density system (no restrictive “flapper-valve”) we had to fabricate an intake buffer for the vacuum signal. Our experience with throttle bodies is that they sometimes have an erratic vacuum signal. We solved this by using the buffer to ensure proper vacuum signals to the MegaSquirt ECU. For a responsive throttle, a TPS signal was used to setup throttle enrichment. MegaSquirt was a fairly painless system to install and tune. Using our Eddie Current Loading Dynamometer, we were able to tune for maximum power and efficiency. One of the benefits of MegaSquirt, is its data-logging capabilities as you can log all of the engine’s sensors as a reference for tuning. It is also compatible with wideband O2 Sensors and has an Auto-Tune feature that can be helpful. Unlike other systems, MegaSquirt controls the fuel pump and only activates it when the engine is actually running. This feature is important for safety both for the track and the street. Trust me, you will wish you had it if you get in an accident. If you are looking into setting up an engine management for your Alfa Romeo, I recommend setting up MegaSquirt for its value and capabilities. Mega Squirt is not a competitor with elaborate systems such as Motec etc. It is however a great system for those who may want to do some of the tuning themselves or would just like to know the system. It is user and tuner friendly. Overall it is a great bang for the buck!

Check out the Alfa by clicking the link below:
http://www.kitoautosport.com/project...meo/index.html
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post #2 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-23-2006, 01:16 AM
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Geeze, now MegaSquirt spam.

Oh well, I 'was' considering one in the future, but certainly not now, or if I did decide to get one, I'd get it from the source, not some fly by night arrangement looking to make a fast buck on a retail sale markup.

(btw, don't bother with the link above. 8-9 pictures and no information what so-ever beyond a contact email addy. ie: poser site to draw folks to the link for pennies each or hits)




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Last edited by Tifosi; 05-23-2006 at 01:22 AM.
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post #3 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-23-2006, 02:55 AM
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Hi Tifosi,

Why do you say it is SPAM? It looks legit. JungleJustice has some affiliation with Group2 which owns or works on the GTV.
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post #4 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-23-2006, 03:07 AM
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It may not be, but it comes across that way to me.

New register, 1 post scripted like the infomercial on my TV right now, and nothing but a few pix and a contact email from the link in the post.

If it's not outright spam, then it's a commercial for a business :shrug:




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post #5 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-23-2006, 08:52 AM Thread Starter
 
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megasquirt spam

I am not making a sales pitch. I recieve no money for hits on my website, but you would know that since I have no banners on my site. I am here as support and another perspective. I have been doing programmable EFI since HL-1's. There has been alot of discution about EFI and I wanted to put my 2 cents in. I have seen some myths about megasquirt and wanted to dispell them. I did not even mention what compay I work for. If you don't want my input I will gladly keep off the fourm. Yes, I do work for Group 2. I do their dyno tunning including the go-tec. I think the more people who do megasquirt (or any efi system) then the better it is for all. Please do get it from the source. It is open code source and I am not claiming that it is mine. We have done some development on it and have worked through somethings that others have not. I was trying to open up to the Alfa enthusists as a benifit for all. I was offering a resource for tech help and tuning assistance. Is this a fruitless effort?
P.S. I am not a "fly by the night outfit". But thanks for the insult anyways!
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post #6 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-23-2006, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kito
I am not making a sales pitch. [etc. etc. etc.] I did not even mention what compay I work for. [etc. etc. etc.] I was trying to open up to the Alfa enthusists as a benifit for all. I was offering a resource for tech help and tuning assistance. [...]
Please don't insult our intelligence. Tifosi may have been a bit harsh, but it seriously strains credibility for you to claim that you are here for anything other than a commercial purpose. I base this on the following apparent facts:

1) You appeared out of nowhere, and you are not apparently an Alfa guy yourself. You didn't fill out your profile, but I can't help but suspect that you don't have an Alfa yourself---you didn't install this 'squirt on your own car. So, it's only reasonable to ask, why are you here on this forum? Clues can be found in the structure of your post, to wit:

2) When you started a thread about installing a 'squirt on an Alfa, you didn't post a step by step description of the procedure or useful pictures, which is what a member of the Alfa community who wanted to help fellow Alfisti would do. You just posted an announcement that it had been done, and a link to your web site...

3) ...which, notwithstanding a lack of banner ads, is clearly commercial. I quote from your site: "We...do upgrades, custom installation and tuning of aftermarket fuel injection systems. If you have (or want) fuel injection, then Kito Auto Sport is your complete fuel injection source." Now, that's not on the actual page you link to, but that page is nothing but some pretty innocuous pictures of a GTV, which don't really give anyone seriously interested in what you've done any useful information.

4) You did too mention which company you work for: your signature is a link to the company's web site, fer chrissake.

5) It seems suspicious that you, who do tuning for a living, would give away your expertise for free on this board. Certainly there are people who work in support industries who are also part of the BB community, but they are also Alfa guys. I can't believe that you would come here and share your expertise with us with no ulterior motive.

Two months ago junglejustice posted a thread in the Northwest regional forum saying lots of nice things about your shop. (See http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?t=21920) That's the best sort of publicity you can ask for on here. Posting about one's own commercial ventures in the general discussion forums is bad manners.

Maybe I'm wrong and maybe through the GTV project you have been bitten with the Alfa bug, and maybe you will wind up a helpful and respected member of the Alfa community, and I hope that is so. I'll check in a few months and if you have in fact been regularly contributing to discussions on the board I will absolutely post an apology if you feel that my comments here are unwarranted.

One point that I think does bear repeating is that Kito does not make Megasquirt. It's a separate company. Kito apparently installs and tunes Megasquirt systems. So his initial post was not, strictly speaking, "Megasquirt spam". I know a couple guys with 'squirts on their cars, and from what I understand Megasquirt is a good system; people upset with Kito's post should not take it out on Megasquirt.

Chuck King
1973 Berlina
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post #7 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-23-2006, 01:51 PM
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Kito,

Sounds like a cool project and your dyno is probably very useful for part throttle mapping (unlike the the dynojet). With the mustang dyno can you stay at a single throttle position and vary the load on the dyno so that you can cover a lot of rpm/load cells?
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post #8 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-23-2006, 03:10 PM Thread Starter
 
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mustang dyno

Evo75,
Most Mustang and Dystec(sp?)dynos are what's called an Eddie Current Dyno. These dynos basically have a big electric brake as well as a spinning mass. This brake can be used to hold back power produced by the car that is strapped on the dyno. It can be set at different power levels as well as speeds. Most Dyno Jets are what's called an Inertia dyno. Basically it measures power by how fast it accelerates a mass. It is VERY difficult to load an Inertia Dyno. There is al lot of talk out there about what is the best kind of dyno. I believe that it depends on what you want to do. If you just want to measure power then both will work just fine. If you are trying to dial in a control system (ecu, boost controler ect.) at a given load or speed, then an Eddie Current is the only way to go. If you are dealing with programmable ECU's a Eddie Current dyno will make your life much easier. I have found that if you try and tune on an Inertia dyno you end up with issues associated with load. For example: if you are setting timming for max power you will often get ping on the street because the Inertia Dyno will not pull a realistic load. It also generall take alot longer because you will just pass across the load cell. You can't hold that cell and dial it in. I hope this helps!
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post #9 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-24-2006, 02:51 PM
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I don't know anything about/never heard of Mr. Kito, but Group2 is 110% totally legit, a very reputable, generally very high-end race shop in Seattle (Interbay). They are widely heralded as the best alignmnet shop in the area. If Group2 likes him, then he must know what he's doing. No affiliation, etc., just 2+2=4.

Jonathan
1974 GTV 2000 (ex-1992 Spider Veloce)
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post #10 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-31-2006, 03:24 AM
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Heck yeah!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jthames
I don't know anything about/never heard of Mr. Kito, but Group2 is 110% totally legit, a very reputable, generally very high-end race shop in Seattle (Interbay). They are widely heralded as the best alignmnet shop in the area. If Group2 likes him, then he must know what he's doing. No affiliation, etc., just 2+2=4.
Joe English, the owner of Group2, is one of the nicest automotive guys I have ever had dealings with. His daily driver is an Alfetta Sedan - need I say more?


(brace yourself - I feel a rant coming on)

Quote:
Geeze, now MegaSquirt spam.

Oh well, I 'was' considering one in the future, but certainly not now, or if I did decide to get one, I'd get it from the source, not some fly by night arrangement looking to make a fast buck on a retail sale markup. [and others in the same vein]
I am not familiar with Mr. Kito, but I think that Megasquirt represents the greatest boon to out-of-the-mainstream types like ourselves since Romeo bought Alfa. Look guys, obviously you are not familiar with the Windows vs. Linux shakeout in the computer world. ("I'd get it from the source" - there is no "source" just like there is no "LINUX INC." listed on the NYSE) It is far from over, in fact it is not a bus. v. bus. shootout in the traditional sense, but the deal is that you can do all kinds of things with Linux that you can't even think about doing with Windows. But... you have to pay some people to help you. Or spend a very long time figuring it out for yourself. It's the same dern thing with MSq. I am telling you that for people like us, and for cars that you actually want to drive, it is the only sensible way to go. BUT you are going to have to get help. Over time as the knowledge grows it will become widely distributed, however along the way, people are going to have to get paid to develop it. Or you wait and wait. And miss out on the best running vintage Alfa you can imagine.

Think about it, for years Spica was regarded as the lump of metal from hell. Everybody yanked it and put on Webers. Now that Wes, and many others to a lesser degree, have taken the time, (paid for by customers, hello!), to decipher it's workings, it is finally understood for the beautiful engineering tour-de-force that it was all along. Megasquirt is next. People will help, and get paid for helping - get over it. In fact we need to find out who the good helpers are, patronize them, and then, (and only then), will some of our great "reporters" cover the Megasquirt installation "story". That's when we will see the pictures and instruction steps whose absence some are so presumptuously complaining about. That's when you will be able to, for less that a Wes Ingram pump rebuild, yank those #$&%**$&% Webers that some well-meaning, but clueless individual grafted in place of the original and sublime Spica, and get that engine purring. Only now it purrs when its warm and purrs when its cold and purrs when its been a year or two since it was first installed. (By the way, did you look at that torque curve among the [useless ] pictures? )

Or you can maintain some rosy fiction that the bb is "pure" while you are looking for a pen to write your $2000 check to Microsoft, oops, I mean Electromotive.

So, Mr. Kito, I personally salute you! If you want to come here and brag that you are at the vanguard of the revolution, I don't blame you a bit. I would too, and will do so, when I do my first MSq install. (Bye-Bye Webers ). Then if anybody wants help to do their own, of course I will be glad to do whatever I can for them, within reason, just like everybody here has done for me. But that doesn't mean that I will come over and do the job for them. For that, they will pay, if I decide to make a business of it. It also probably doesn't mean that I will post copius detailed photos and ez step-by-steps. That's just not the way my cookie crumbles. But if somebody wants to come over and see how I did it, they can take all the pictures they want. If someone wants to copy my only-on-an-Alfa timing wheel set up, of course I will encourage them to do so. None of the stuff I am thinking about even exists yet. If Mr. Kito will develop it, I would be glad to buy the kit from him. Just like if I want to put in a quick and functional Linux I go buy Red Hat. Just like if I want a turbo on my engine with equal length runners on the exhaust manifold, I can learn how to run CAD system, take some welding classes, and a couple of years later I have my headers, OR, I give Jim Steck a call, (and a couple of years later I have my headers Just kidding Jim.).

Come on guys, Alfa was bought by Romeo to run as a business. In fact, I am pretty sure he made some bank on the deal, at least enough to keep it going and hopeful of more. Along the way a great enterprise got it's start, something for which we are all very grateful. The reason that now Alfa is basically gone is that the Italian government ran the business into the ground and then sold the dregs to Fiat. If instead there had been some stalwart like Enzo to run Alfa, THE BUSINESS, we could be thumbing our noses at the BMW dealer as we pull in to the Alfa lot to take a test drive of the latest model. (Not, ) So please keep the concept of business in perspective, OK.

(OK, sound the all clear)

Regards to all and thanks for letting me vent,

Randy Lee

"HAVE another cookie!!" - Don Corrado Prizzi

Randy's Italian Lot:
1978 Sport Sedan - "Cecilia", a rustfree Alfetta
1990 Mondial T Cabrio - Engine major service, climate control overhaul, and interior tune up still to go - Short is on it!!
1958 Giullietta Sprint. "G.Sprint" No holds barred. 3.0 Liter 12 Valve V6 and Verde transaxle just to get warmed up!
1976 Alfetta GT. Twin 45 Dellortos. Alfetta maintainence drug while Cecilla gets restored.
1978 Alfetta GT. Ex Keith Martin, and getting a nice set of Euro Bumpers along with the rest of the good parts off the '76.
ON HOLD 196x Lancia Flaminia Sedan - name and the rest TBD.

Ex:
79 Spt Sdn. "Griswold" and never-driven '74 Spider sold to Harry Riley
74 Spider "Isabel" traded for "Cecilia" Thanks Ric!
(Look at Isabel now:
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1979 Sport Sedan Alfamatic. Traded to Wilbur for a very sweet bicycle - thanks!
All the parts cars chopped up or sent to Larry...

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post #11 of 53 (permalink) Old 06-02-2006, 07:55 AM
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Weighing In...

Hey Guys,

Well somebody asked me the other day why I was so quiet on this subject - I told him that the jury was still out... So please allow me the soap-box for a moment (as a bit of **** drips from the proverbial fan...)

First off; Tifosi and chasking - thanks for calling it like it is - we have to protect (what is arguably) the ultimate car-forum (in terms of the knowledge-base, the people, the variety of models covered, the activity, the support and the lack of arseholes!) - everything that makes us all come back here every day. Zamani and Randy - thanks for keeping things cool and on-track.

I'll tell ya; my relationship with Kito (if so it could be called) started out looking like an AFR graph on a fresh engine-build before mapping (with valleys in the 11% range and then spikes in the 22% range...) -Overall; quite a bit of raw fuel getting dumped in to the exhausts, bad cold-start characteristics and a bit of a surge at tip-in...

Once it warms up though, it runs fine but there is still a bit of that cruising/part-throttle hick-up to get tuned-out of our interaction... "We'll get there" as they say!

Part of the reason for the rough start in our relationship was that Kito IS big on MS and I (as some of you know) am big on the toys from the GoTech boys back home as well as the UniChip piggy-back systems for later model cars (I use both!) Kito (as I) have pretty strong opinions on things - he is a pretty cynical guy though that doesn't believe something until HE has done it himself and verified for himself that it works (for the sake of his customers to an extent) and yet ; he was open-minded enough though to give the GoTech a shot (with good results, I might add...) I can tell you all that from talking to him and spending time with him and tuning on the dyno with him; he has the best intent when it comes to his customers and their cars (...and yes, he did come on here a bit hard and "commercial" but he was not the first...)

Respectively, Kito and I like the two systems (at least in part) for similar reasons; both are now fairly readily available, both solutions represent a fantastic dollar-value compared to say, Autronic, SDS, MSD, Electromotive, AEM, Haltech etc etc and I am not even talking about Motec (where few use even 10% of the power that those systems have and you pay through the nose for them!) Both systems also have a great deal of flexibility!

I have since then seen Joe's GTV run well on MS and clearly; it works. Kito has dialed in a couple of GoTechs for me and seen very good power-gains from pretty stock motors - much to his surprise - I'm sure... (he did ask why there was always oil on his dyno after the Alfas had been there and I told him that it was to keep his dyno from rusting... In the end; perhaps MS does present a better margin-opportunity for a business such as Kito's (since he can bill a bit of labour for building you an MS), whereas I would charge a small profit on my GoTech for the service of flying to SA, investing in inventory, taking care of the formal import-logistics etc and then playing phone-support as far as I can....

KAS, G2 or whomever you choose will charge you about the same for the install provided that you do not want to go at it yourself. At the end of the day, we need each other.

And that's OK. The man has placed his personal capital at risk to build that shop (and a nice one it is), we have to respect that - he has the right to try and market it a bit. At the same time; Kito - with Alfa-guys (and especially here on the BB), we are a bit protective. You have to take it easy and by all means contribute - and I don't just mean offer your services at a price - I mean, contribute and invest in Alfas and Alfa-people if you want business in this arena - that's how Group 2 has built a reputation and clearly earned the respect of others around here - there are more of their own Alfas sitting around there than customer Alfas and they are quick to share details of what they have learned!

As far as the systems; at the end of the day, the two solutions would cost you about the same and both would net you similar results given the same engine specs and a dedicated tuner with real skills working both equally hard. You don't have to build the GoTech; it is complete and ready to go. You can build the MS for less money but it will take time, or you have to pay somebody to build it for you (as Randy had mentioned...) In the end it costs the same and that brings me to Kito's shop;

In the Seattle-area there are only about 4 dynos and up to now only ONE offered 4-wheel services for the Audi/Subaru/Mitsu Evo/SUV camps! FEW of them build and install stand-alone engine management systems - MOST of them will charge you, strap your car down, do some power-pulls, hand you a print-out and say thanks (with the exception of Alex at Carb Connection.) He did the UniChip on my 164 LS - which is a GREAT alternative for newer factory ignition systems if you would like to retain some of the OEM electronics, but still gain control over the fuel and timing. His is only a two-wheel dyno for now though.

With 4-wheel-drive Alfas conceivably headed our way in the future, the last thing that we want is a shop like FAME Automotive running the monopoly in town as the only 4-wheel dyno-option in the area. Kito's prices are better, he is right in Seattle and I think that the man has good intentions. (We just need to continue smoothing-out the relationship part-throttle a bit and then things would be good.)

As far as the map that he did on my personal 3.0 Verde (GoTech) and the map for another G2 customer's GoTech (2.5 GTV6 with a set of Dawie's heads from South Africa) - he did a great job and that is really most of what it is all about. Can he get the job done? Yes. Have we managed to get to know one-another in the process? Yes.

Full-Race 6-Speed Getrag 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; 1993 155 TS 2.0; 1999 24 Valve 3.0 916 GTV; 1995 164Q; 1987 Milano Verde; 1966 GTV Stepnose

Last edited by junglejustice; 06-02-2006 at 08:07 AM.
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post #12 of 53 (permalink) Old 06-02-2006, 11:01 AM
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I think everyone needs to calm down a bit here...

How many times have people asked about doing a SPICA manifold kind of EFI on??? Yet, few enough have that here comes someone who has, and posted it, and he gets hammered for trying to sell a product.

While it *might* be questionable, what would you do if I posted the exact same thing? Theoretically, I have a little more credibility with the background I have, but who knows?

Be clear, if I put together a package like that, there's no way I could give it away- I'd have to sell it too. Perhaps it was a little to "sell" oriented, but one could give the guy the benefit of the doubt to describe what he did... And perhaps this customer of Kito's told him "Man, this is awesome- you should tell the Alfa community..."

Lighten up a little, my friends... If you don't like it, don't buy it.

BTW, Kito- Eddy current dynos' are not quite the cat's meow, DC dyno's are... Eddy's are darned close, and a LOT less expensive. But our labs are filled with DC dynos...

Eric

p.s. we are planning on the same set up IF we ever do another GRM car- SPICA manifold and MS injection/ ignition + better turbo/intercooler set up. Unless, of course my friend junglejustice finds me a $150 GoTech, nudge, nudge, say no more...
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post #13 of 53 (permalink) Old 09-05-2006, 06:16 PM
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Megasquirt

Kito;

What did you charge for tuning the system to the Alfa?

Wes
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post #14 of 53 (permalink) Old 09-06-2006, 01:42 PM Thread Starter
 
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Dr.G
The price of tuning varys alot. Is your car already "street tuned"? Are you starting with a clean slate? Is your ECU installed and does it run? It is least expensive if there is already a street tune in an installed ecu (less time = less money). You are welcome to call me and I would be happy to go over what you have, what you want and how much it costs.

We also just developed a SPICA EFI manifold. I gave one prototype to Group 2 for "real world" testing. I am currently looking for someone who is ready to install EFI (or already has it) and run our second prototype. I would prefer someone locally but not required. I need someone who will give me detailed feedback on the unit. I don't care which ECU that you are using. I plan on posting details of the SPICA conversion but first I would want to make sure the bugs are worked out. If you are interested or know someone then please contact me : 206.782.1381.
Thanks!!
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post #15 of 53 (permalink) Old 09-06-2006, 06:47 PM
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Thumbs up

Thumbs up for kito. Alfa people used to be innovative. It seems that now all they do is whine. Well not all. It's good to see someone that is still interested in modifying the alfa with modern efi. Forget those old webers. Efi is the present. It makes the car more enjoyable and trouble free.
Just imagine if young tuners got their hands on alfas a long time ago. We would have much more availability of parts.
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