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post #31 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-16-2006, 04:36 PM
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. That's right - the SPICA was already converted! What happened to all of the sellers ready to build a box for 2-300 bucks...?

...yeah, you're right... I just don't get the whole bazooka-box MAP-thing or the fact that it is a fuel-only management system (compared often to professional, turn-key systems that manage fuel AND spark.)

I've seen it work in Michael's GTV6 - seems to do the job OK, but he had to add a seperate ignition module???

Full-Race 6-Speed Getrag 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; 1993 155 TS 2.0; 1999 24 Valve 3.0 916 GTV; 1995 164Q; 1987 Milano Verde; 1966 GTV Stepnose
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post #32 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-16-2006, 11:32 PM
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It will do fuel and spark. The simplest way is to get a Ford EDIS module. (Ig. module and coil pack all in one) Megasquirt will supply the SAW signal used by that unit to set timing, dwell, and advance. With an EDIS module you can do wasted spark up to an 8 cyl. With standard ig. modules you are limited to wasted spark on a 4.

Go-tech basically does the same thing but has the aditional cap. to do wasted spark on a 6 using it's coil packs. You still need ignition circuitry and coils, just like MS. Thing is, you can get EDIS at the junkyard cheap. The next gen of MS is going to have an optional switch to provide the ability to control coil per cyl. setups.

John, the truth is that they are pretty close as far as capacity. Performance, I don't have enought data to say. It's not fair to compare one of your clean Go-tech installs to some schlub's MS disaster area.

Still, at this stage of development, Go-tech probably makes more sense for the average bear. However the advantage of MS for would-be developers like me is that I have a better margin on the box to subsidize the cost of producing kits. Kits that will have most of the tuning and installation issues pre-ironed out, or I won't go into production.

What is this Bazooka thing??

Best,

Randy Lee

"HAVE another cookie!!" - Don Corrado Prizzi

Randy's Italian Lot:
1978 Sport Sedan - "Cecilia", a rustfree Alfetta
1990 Mondial T Cabrio - Engine major service, climate control overhaul, and interior tune up still to go - Short is on it!!
1958 Giullietta Sprint. "G.Sprint" No holds barred. 3.0 Liter 12 Valve V6 and Verde transaxle just to get warmed up!
1976 Alfetta GT. Twin 45 Dellortos. Alfetta maintainence drug while Cecilla gets restored.
1978 Alfetta GT. Ex Keith Martin, and getting a nice set of Euro Bumpers along with the rest of the good parts off the '76.
ON HOLD 196x Lancia Flaminia Sedan - name and the rest TBD.

Ex:
79 Spt Sdn. "Griswold" and never-driven '74 Spider sold to Harry Riley
74 Spider "Isabel" traded for "Cecilia" Thanks Ric!
(Look at Isabel now:
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1979 Sport Sedan Alfamatic. Traded to Wilbur for a very sweet bicycle - thanks!
All the parts cars chopped up or sent to Larry...

Last edited by randyleepublic; 10-17-2006 at 12:04 AM.
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post #33 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 08:09 AM
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I dunno! They plumbed this HUGE (like 12 inches long and 4-5 inches in diameter) plastic tube in the passenger-side foot-well and ran all of the MAP vacuum lines in and out of it - just weird.

The GoTech has a tiny pressure sensor inside of it to read MAP and the harness comes with an air temp sensor installed which you simply place inside of the intake run...

Yeah, no after-market EMS/EFI/ECU comes WITH coils inside - not even the Motec - you buy the coils and everything else is a la carte. With Gotech Standard you also buy the box, nothing else needed - you run coil-fire direct on your stock coil that is there - no other sensors needed - on the V6 it just drives the stock dizzy that already has a Hal sender in it.

If you want to run other new, individual coils then fine - buy 'em, step up to the Pro model and run a 60-2 crank sensor. The same system will drive them. The main thing for me was that I did NOT need to buy another ignition module or separate Ford-anything - the Gotech has it all in the box - fuel and spark! Turn-key. Harness done.

What I am doing with Group 2 now for the 4-bangers is coming up with three 4 cylinder packages;

The first for someone on a budget gets an exchange stock 4 cylinder SPICA manifold drilled to accept 4 EFI injectors (Kito has done one for them), a GoTech Standard and harness, stock coil-fire-direct and the distributor converted (exchange) with Hal-sender and 4-blade chopper (sort of similar to the V6 kits that GoTech has probably sold 30 of here in the US this past year) - except on the V6, the intake runners already run EFI injectors and the dizzy already has the Hal-sender in it, so conversion is MUCH easier!

The next budget-up kit would include 4 beautiful affordable individual throttle bodies (also from GoTech) with EFI injectors. it will run a new (included) single coil and the Hal-a-fied stock distributor (exchange for yours.)

The third kit would run the ITBs, but include dual coils, a 60 minus 2 crank pulley and crank angle sensor, MAP and TPS and run all off of it on a GoTech Pro and harness.

Of note: The latter two kits have been running in many cars for years - all over the world - it is just new to us here in the States on Alfas. The first kit with the drilled-out stock manifold has been done before privately - just not here. I have many V6 cars running on the turn-key 700 dollar GoTech Standard systems (including my own Milano Verde.) I am about to upgrade the old 12 valve girl to a GoTech Pro with 6 Alfa 155 coil-packs and crank-angle sensor... I will document it all here!

Full-Race 6-Speed Getrag 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; 1993 155 TS 2.0; 1999 24 Valve 3.0 916 GTV; 1995 164Q; 1987 Milano Verde; 1966 GTV Stepnose
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post #34 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 11:39 AM
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Good Greif!

Now I know why I still drive webers! All this rant and still little info!

Just screw in a reasonable O2 sensor and a meter, and go drive with a screwdriver and a pocket full of weber jets....... I may be 10% short of the max power, then again maybe not. Anyway, I don't get a headache from all this fuzz!



Robert
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post #35 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sRacer
Good Greif!

Now I know why I still drive webers! All this rant and still little info!

Just screw in a reasonable O2 sensor and a meter, and go drive with a screwdriver and a pocket full of weber jets....... I may be 10% short of the max power, then again maybe not. Anyway, I don't get a headache from all this fuzz!



Robert
LOL!!! Can't teach an old dog new tricks, eh, Robert?

I'll fully admit that I have no idea how to tune carbs, but give me any EFI, and I'll have it running pretty quickly. For that matter, I just got a nice little award here at work for some super low emissions work I've been doing...

Yes, I can pat my own back pretty hard.

I will also point out- I'll do EFI without the use of dynos, so it's a LOT cheaper. Spark might be risky, but I can always play at the drag strip for a while...

Eric
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post #36 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 01:17 PM
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LOL!!! Can't teach an old dog new tricks, eh, Robert?
Eric

I'll have you know that I've been an Old Goat since I was 8 years old. In fact, I'm a third generation member of OGSA.

Actually, its because the engines I have are from the carb era. No crank sensors, etc that are needed to get a good EFI to work. Now if I were to swap in a TS, it'd surely be a hot-shot EFI....

Robert

*that's the Old Goat Society of America
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post #37 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 04:07 PM
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JJ: what injectors are you using on the spica manis?

As for the bazooka, oh OK, a misguided attempt to solve the accurate map pressure problem. Steck figured that one out. There are two "balance" tubes in the bottom of the spica mani. Drill into those, connect them, and done. The GTV had the Webber throttles though so you needed something diff. The "classic" answer is to put a "log" near the throttles. Like a fuel rail, but for map pressue - and connected the same way. One line to each port (post throttle!) and then one off the end to get the signal.

How did you end up hooking it to the Go-Tech?

Question: I read the Go-tech install man. last night. It said the pro had 3 ig. wires. That would not allow coil per cyl on a 6, would it?? The Go-tech 6 cyl coil pack looks like it uses 3 coils for a wasted spark setup - right?

Learning,

Randy Lee

"HAVE another cookie!!" - Don Corrado Prizzi

Randy's Italian Lot:
1978 Sport Sedan - "Cecilia", a rustfree Alfetta
1990 Mondial T Cabrio - Engine major service, climate control overhaul, and interior tune up still to go - Short is on it!!
1958 Giullietta Sprint. "G.Sprint" No holds barred. 3.0 Liter 12 Valve V6 and Verde transaxle just to get warmed up!
1976 Alfetta GT. Twin 45 Dellortos. Alfetta maintainence drug while Cecilla gets restored.
1978 Alfetta GT. Ex Keith Martin, and getting a nice set of Euro Bumpers along with the rest of the good parts off the '76.
ON HOLD 196x Lancia Flaminia Sedan - name and the rest TBD.

Ex:
79 Spt Sdn. "Griswold" and never-driven '74 Spider sold to Harry Riley
74 Spider "Isabel" traded for "Cecilia" Thanks Ric!
(Look at Isabel now:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
!!)
1979 Sport Sedan Alfamatic. Traded to Wilbur for a very sweet bicycle - thanks!
All the parts cars chopped up or sent to Larry...

Last edited by randyleepublic; 10-17-2006 at 09:38 PM.
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post #38 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-17-2006, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junglejustice
The next budget-up kit would include 4 beautiful affordable individual throttle bodies (also from GoTech) with EFI injectors.
Unclear. Throttle bodies that attach to what? The Spica manifold? Or are they part of a complete manifold that bolts to the Alfa block.

If they attach to the manifold, wouldn't the injectors be sort of far off from the ports?

If a manifold, how is the idle controled?

Price??? Pictures??? Please.

Randy Lee

"HAVE another cookie!!" - Don Corrado Prizzi

Randy's Italian Lot:
1978 Sport Sedan - "Cecilia", a rustfree Alfetta
1990 Mondial T Cabrio - Engine major service, climate control overhaul, and interior tune up still to go - Short is on it!!
1958 Giullietta Sprint. "G.Sprint" No holds barred. 3.0 Liter 12 Valve V6 and Verde transaxle just to get warmed up!
1976 Alfetta GT. Twin 45 Dellortos. Alfetta maintainence drug while Cecilla gets restored.
1978 Alfetta GT. Ex Keith Martin, and getting a nice set of Euro Bumpers along with the rest of the good parts off the '76.
ON HOLD 196x Lancia Flaminia Sedan - name and the rest TBD.

Ex:
79 Spt Sdn. "Griswold" and never-driven '74 Spider sold to Harry Riley
74 Spider "Isabel" traded for "Cecilia" Thanks Ric!
(Look at Isabel now:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
!!)
1979 Sport Sedan Alfamatic. Traded to Wilbur for a very sweet bicycle - thanks!
All the parts cars chopped up or sent to Larry...
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post #39 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-18-2006, 10:34 PM
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...you're gonna make me do this, aren't you...? I'm just gonna have to do complete GoTech how-to install - step by step, with pictures and everything!

Robert, it is not that big a deal, really. We just ended up bastardizing this thread a bit and that's not good either...

I will start with pics of the existing installs and post them separately! Then I will do a step by step install and document and picture and post it and then I will make sure to also ducument the next 4 banger install on the Group 2 Alfetta! Time-time-time!!!!

We are using some Bosch injectors - 180s me thinks... On the Milanos we use stock injectors. On one V6 3.0 car we got Greg Gordon's Stage 1 injectors... On the two 3.7s we use stock GTA 270cc injectors and on the new motor coming I bought 350s....

See, on the tube-thing, I don't get it. The GoTech works without it! We plumbed the t-bodies together with "T"s and then one vacuum-line in to the back of the Gotech to the (included) pressure sensor inside of the Gotech box...

There are 3 major lines of GoTech models - Standard, Pro and Pro-X... The Pro-X for example does full sequential fuel and spark for 1,300 USD - that compares to a Motec of 5,000-8K USD!!! So, you can run a Pro-X and drive the stock 6 individual coil-on-plug coil-packs of the 164 LS 24 valve for example. Or, you can just run the base little GoTech Standard and fire the stock single Alfa coil with it - coil-fire-direct - wasted spark - just like stock.

In the middle-range, a nice system for all of the V6 Alfas, running say just the GoTech Pro model with a 60 minus 2 crank trigger-wheel and crank-angle sensor and wasted spark is fine as that is what they run stock any way....

Full-Race 6-Speed Getrag 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; 1993 155 TS 2.0; 1999 24 Valve 3.0 916 GTV; 1995 164Q; 1987 Milano Verde; 1966 GTV Stepnose

Last edited by junglejustice; 10-18-2006 at 10:48 PM.
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post #40 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-18-2006, 10:45 PM
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Idle? Well, never underestimate the value of a mechanical solution to an electronic problem! In the old days...

In South Africa we built the only original 3.0 V6 12 valve GTV6 cars ever - about 204 of them... Any way - they ran 6 Dellorto down-draught carbs that were a bear to synchronize... (From the Alfa Six sedan...) Any way, they were even more of a ***** to coax in to a smooth, even idle... it truly sucked trying to get those 6 butterflies to stay open just enough for smooth low-level idle...

They would be perfect from the showroom floor to about the first traffic light!

Well, Dawie de Villiers was just about the only game in town if you wanted your GTV6 3.0 to idle smoothly - take it to Glenwood Motors. Today - 20 plus years later the old bugger reveals his "secret" to me the other day (I am sure that it is not longer a mystery these days anymore, but still);

Idle control holes! 6 Small equally-sized holes of a very specific diameter drilled in each of the 6 butterflies and the 6 butterflies adjusted and retracted with strong springs to their full shut position...

There is always simply setting the T-bodies to partial open. There is an electronic throttle driver coming in the GoTechs. My Milano idles smooth and even and low. The 3.7 with two long blocks housing 6 individual throttle plates running GoTech Pro idles low and smooth... There must be a way.

Full-Race 6-Speed Getrag 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; 1993 155 TS 2.0; 1999 24 Valve 3.0 916 GTV; 1995 164Q; 1987 Milano Verde; 1966 GTV Stepnose

Last edited by junglejustice; 10-18-2006 at 10:51 PM.
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post #41 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-19-2006, 01:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junglejustice
...you're gonna make me do this, aren't you...? I'm just gonna have to do complete GoTech how-to install - step by step, with pictures and everything!

Robert, it is not that big a deal, really. We just ended up bastardizing this thread a bit and that's not good either...

I will start with pics of the existing installs and post them separately! Then I will do a step by step install and document and picture and post it and then I will make sure to also ducument the next 4 banger install on the Group 2 Alfetta! Time-time-time!!!!

We are using some Bosch injectors - 180s me thinks... On the Milanos we use stock injectors. On one V6 3.0 car we got Greg Gordon's Stage 1 injectors... On the two 3.7s we use stock GTA 270cc injectors and on the new motor coming I bought 350s....

See, on the tube-thing, I don't get it. The GoTech works without it! We plumbed the t-bodies together with "T"s and then one vacuum-line in to the back of the Gotech to the (included) pressure sensor inside of the Gotech box...

There are 3 major lines of GoTech models - Standard, Pro and Pro-X... The Pro-X for example does full sequential fuel and spark for 1,300 USD - that compares to a Motec of 5,000-8K USD!!! So, you can run a Pro-X and drive the stock 6 individual coil-on-plug coil-packs of the 164 LS 24 valve for example. Or, you can just run the base little GoTech Standard and fire the stock single Alfa coil with it - coil-fire-direct - wasted spark - just like stock.

In the middle-range, a nice system for all of the V6 Alfas, running say just the GoTech Pro model with a 60 minus 2 crank trigger-wheel and crank-angle sensor and wasted spark is fine as that is what they run stock any way....

Robert??? who is that?

No that is not necc. I just want to understand what each of the price points offers. Plus I really want pictures and prices on the throttle bodys!!!

As for map sensor, you are making a mountain out of a molehill and, with your Jungle enthusiasm, clouding the issue. A MAP pressure sensor is a MAP pressure sensor is a MAP pressure sensor. Vacuum on one side - electricity on the other. They are all the same whether built in to the box like Gotech or wired to it with one or two wires at in at install like MS.

The important and controversial issue is where to get the vacuum signal from the engine. This is only an issue on a car with individual throttle bodys. (On cars with one throttle you just hook the vacuum line up just about anywhere after the throttle.)

But on cars with multiple throttles, it is very tricky. The "Bazooka" was apparently some kind of half-baked attempt to solve this engineering puzzle. That's one of the reasons I would like to see good pictures of the Gotech Throttles - to see how they solved at least part of the problem. OK?

As for our buddy's GTV, the Weber throttles probably have their solution, but just having a port on each throttle is not the whole of the solution. How you hook the four ports up is just as important a part of the problem.

Please put up prices and pictures on the Gotech throttles if not on the bb on the Glenwood Motors North America website, or somewhere else, OK? Thanks,

Randy Lee

"HAVE another cookie!!" - Don Corrado Prizzi

Randy's Italian Lot:
1978 Sport Sedan - "Cecilia", a rustfree Alfetta
1990 Mondial T Cabrio - Engine major service, climate control overhaul, and interior tune up still to go - Short is on it!!
1958 Giullietta Sprint. "G.Sprint" No holds barred. 3.0 Liter 12 Valve V6 and Verde transaxle just to get warmed up!
1976 Alfetta GT. Twin 45 Dellortos. Alfetta maintainence drug while Cecilla gets restored.
1978 Alfetta GT. Ex Keith Martin, and getting a nice set of Euro Bumpers along with the rest of the good parts off the '76.
ON HOLD 196x Lancia Flaminia Sedan - name and the rest TBD.

Ex:
79 Spt Sdn. "Griswold" and never-driven '74 Spider sold to Harry Riley
74 Spider "Isabel" traded for "Cecilia" Thanks Ric!
(Look at Isabel now:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
!!)
1979 Sport Sedan Alfamatic. Traded to Wilbur for a very sweet bicycle - thanks!
All the parts cars chopped up or sent to Larry...

Last edited by randyleepublic; 10-19-2006 at 01:40 AM.
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post #42 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-20-2006, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randyleepublic
The important and controversial issue is where to get the vacuum signal from the engine. This is only an issue on a car with individual throttle bodys. (On cars with one throttle you just hook the vacuum line up just about anywhere after the throttle.)

But on cars with multiple throttles, it is very tricky. The "Bazooka" was apparently some kind of half-baked attempt to solve this engineering puzzle. That's one of the reasons I would like to see good pictures of the Gotech Throttles - to see how they solved at least part of the problem. OK?

As for our buddy's GTV, the Weber throttles probably have their solution, but just having a port on each throttle is not the whole of the solution. How you hook the four ports up is just as important a part of the problem.
FWIW This is what I did with the TWM Throttle body’s. The red hose goes back to the ecu and the black hose goes to te brake booster. The Steve Schwitters (the engine builder) told me there were not any problems with an erratic vacuum signal with this set up.
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post #43 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-21-2006, 01:03 AM
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Murray:

That's a georgeous carbon fiber air box! You really did go all out!

Robert
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post #44 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-21-2006, 06:15 AM
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Where does the black tube go?

Randy Lee

"HAVE another cookie!!" - Don Corrado Prizzi

Randy's Italian Lot:
1978 Sport Sedan - "Cecilia", a rustfree Alfetta
1990 Mondial T Cabrio - Engine major service, climate control overhaul, and interior tune up still to go - Short is on it!!
1958 Giullietta Sprint. "G.Sprint" No holds barred. 3.0 Liter 12 Valve V6 and Verde transaxle just to get warmed up!
1976 Alfetta GT. Twin 45 Dellortos. Alfetta maintainence drug while Cecilla gets restored.
1978 Alfetta GT. Ex Keith Martin, and getting a nice set of Euro Bumpers along with the rest of the good parts off the '76.
ON HOLD 196x Lancia Flaminia Sedan - name and the rest TBD.

Ex:
79 Spt Sdn. "Griswold" and never-driven '74 Spider sold to Harry Riley
74 Spider "Isabel" traded for "Cecilia" Thanks Ric!
(Look at Isabel now:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
!!)
1979 Sport Sedan Alfamatic. Traded to Wilbur for a very sweet bicycle - thanks!
All the parts cars chopped up or sent to Larry...
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post #45 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-21-2006, 10:14 AM
 
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Thank You Kito!

Thank You Kito for taking the time and effort to share your findings with us!! Too many people like to critisize "updated or modified" Alfa's here-I for one (of many) applaude your contributions to find ways to pull as much power, style and comfort out of these exotic cars!!!!
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