Success!!! MegaSquirt n EDIS on 2.0L Alfa GTV - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 53 (permalink) Old 09-15-2006, 07:55 AM
 
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Personally you have to remeber that some of us dont live in the US, so for me Kito's post was not commercial at all, it was just someone giving advice and opinion on the Megasquirt.

And I learnt about the types of dyno's - not all of us have all the pieces so even little tidbits help complete the picture ( PS the mega squirt is quite straight forward to me, but that because I am an electrical engineer)

I think mega squirt looks great and just waiting to see how the ultra squirt development comes out. If no action soon I will get the megasquirt and solder it together and install it in the car myself

In the spirit of this board when i do solder the unit together (Hopefully late October) i will post a blow by blow account to help anyone else out who may wish to give it a go themselves

Also would be interested to hear anyones experiences with megasquirt
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post #17 of 53 (permalink) Old 09-16-2006, 08:40 AM
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Kito

Thanks for the information. EFI\Capacitive discharge ignition will certainly be my next step. Until then, I need my twinspark finished as well as my spider bodywork completed. So I'll be going with my (moldy oldie) Webers, Nissan distributor and watch the (lively) discussion (and my less than ideal gas mileage and purr-formance).

Wes
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post #18 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-13-2006, 04:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.G
Kito;

What did you charge for tuning the system to the Alfa?

Wes
There seems to be quite the "chasm" when it comes to pricing the tuning portion of an EFI conversion; one shop might take it a bit easy on you on the tuning bill IF he had the opportunity to sell you a system, or if he gained the labour on the installation, or if he got to build you a system like an MS from scratch (and charge you 1500 bucks for something with a 100 dollar parts-list.)

I installed 2 of "my" GoTech fully programmable stand-alone engine management systems in 2 separate Alfas in the past year, both complete with good (identical) starting maps and actually DROVE both cars to two separate dynos...

-I was surprised to find the bill for JUST the basic mapping varied so greatly between the two local dynos... One shop charged 300 for one session and 180 dollars for a subsequent session - 480 - total for a pretty good map. By contrast, the OTHER shop charged over 2000 dollars for just one tuning session on the other car!!! (The latter bill EXTREMELY excessive in my opinion for a map that was still quite a ways from being done-done - especially as compared to the bill/map on the first car at the first shop...)

Keep in mind that both were the exact same model cars, both were the exact same model engine management systems, both were installed by me, both had the same starting maps, both were driven over to the two respective shops!!! I can only assume that the "dig" from the 2nd shop was because we did not pay 1500 dollars to have the 2nd guy build us a MegaSquirt and install it, but rather brought the car over with a different system already installed - (by the way, 1500 was the charge for shop # 2 to build us a MS for yet a 3rd car!!!)

Caveat Emptor.

700 bucks for a self-contained, fully programmable, stand-alone engine management system that handles both fuel AND spark! - INCLUDING a plug and play Alfa/Bosch-specific harness for your 4-banger or for your V6 Alfa - sign me up! Group 2's own little '74 GTV 2000 now runs a set of 4 beautiful individual throttle-bodies successfully with the GoTech PRO version (900 bucks including said harness), a 60 minus 2 crank-trigger, TPS and MAP! It starts right up, it is smooth, it makes power, the base map that came from GoTech is very close (given that they pulled injectors, ITBs, ECU, crank-trigger, sensors and 60-2 pulley - all from VARYING sources!)

Full-Race 6-Speed Getrag 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; 1993 155 TS 2.0; 1999 24 Valve 3.0 916 GTV; 1995 164Q; 1987 Milano Verde; 1966 GTV Stepnose

Last edited by junglejustice; 10-13-2006 at 06:52 AM.
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post #19 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-13-2006, 06:27 AM
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Yes

I anticipated that, so I asked a simple question about how much was charged for that particular system to get an idea of the cost. If someone can't give me a straight answer to a straight question, I'd probably look elsewhere for help. It also makes me wonder if someone is "going to college" on your wallet. Just my concerns.

Wes
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post #20 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-13-2006, 08:21 AM
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Here's a summary of my autronic installation:
Installation: 3 hours
Tuning: a few hours here and there using data logging and a few WOT runs on the dyno.

I got a custom made harness from Beninca Motors for the Alfa V6, very high quality work.

My friend also installed Autronic on his Berlina TS, he made his own harness. Didn't take him more than a few days (he only spent a few hours a day at the most on the install).
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post #21 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-13-2006, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 75evo
Here's a summary of my autronic installation:
Installation: 3 hours
Tuning: a few hours here and there using data logging and a few WOT runs on the dyno.

I got a custom made harness from Beninca Motors for the Alfa V6, very high quality work.

My friend also installed Autronic on his Berlina TS, he made his own harness. Didn't take him more than a few days (he only spent a few hours a day at the most on the install).
75evo has the right idea. Tuning these systems should not be that big a deal. There are only really two variables: timing and mixture. Timing only relates to ignition timing as long as you are not going to go sequential, and that is elegant but not nec. Back to timing in a sec. Mixture is easily set with data logging on an oxy sensor -- dyno not nec. Means free. OK that leaves timing. We have been operating our Alfas for years and years with no more accurate or customized ignition timing than the Rube Goldberg clockwork in our distributors. Works pretty well though. This means that realistically, a guesstimate advance map will probably be 5 times closer to the theoretical ideal than any distributor.

Bottom line: Dynos? we don't need no stinkin' dynos!

Build your own Megasquirt. Plumb the fuel supply. Hook up the sensors and squirters. Load a guesstimap. Drive. Log. Adjust. Done.

$2000 on the Dyno????? Fleeced. Build a Megasquirt for $1500???? More wool. I hope that is not who I am thinking it is - I would be really p.o'd to hear that my dear friend got taken like that.

Don't take me wrong. I am not saying that a dyno is a useless piece of equip. Of course not. What I am saying is that for most of us a roll-your-own tuning of a well installed megasquirt (or gotech for that matter) is all you need. Beyond that is icing on the cake - looks and tastes good, but not essential.

Now eventually when I start selling plug and play Spica replacements with sequential injection, well then I will spend some $ on the dyno to dial in the injection timing, and etc. Then ALL my custormers will get the benefit of that tuning built in to their kits.

Best,

Randy Lee

"HAVE another cookie!!" - Don Corrado Prizzi

Randy's Italian Lot:
1978 Sport Sedan - "Cecilia", a rustfree Alfetta
1990 Mondial T Cabrio - Engine major service, climate control overhaul, and interior tune up still to go - Short is on it!!
1958 Giullietta Sprint. "G.Sprint" No holds barred. 3.0 Liter 12 Valve V6 and Verde transaxle just to get warmed up!
1976 Alfetta GT. Twin 45 Dellortos. Alfetta maintainence drug while Cecilla gets restored.
1978 Alfetta GT. Ex Keith Martin, and getting a nice set of Euro Bumpers along with the rest of the good parts off the '76.
ON HOLD 196x Lancia Flaminia Sedan - name and the rest TBD.

Ex:
79 Spt Sdn. "Griswold" and never-driven '74 Spider sold to Harry Riley
74 Spider "Isabel" traded for "Cecilia" Thanks Ric!
(Look at Isabel now:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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1979 Sport Sedan Alfamatic. Traded to Wilbur for a very sweet bicycle - thanks!
All the parts cars chopped up or sent to Larry...

Last edited by randyleepublic; 10-13-2006 at 11:25 AM.
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post #22 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-13-2006, 05:58 PM
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Who is doing the tuning in omaha? I know a few guys from that area that are using megasquirt and know how to tune it. They are on the other forum that i frequent. The guy is very helpfull and i can give you his info if you like. It could save you $$$
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post #23 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-13-2006, 06:11 PM
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All shops have diffrent methods of charging. Some will tune it for a flat fee. Others will make a few pulls and charge you by the hour.
To give you guys an example of what i once paid for tuning. It came out to $1,100. Note this is not on an Alfa.
The vehicle spent 4 days at the location. They installed ecu, New 50lb injectors, afr, and tuned it for streetability. I supplied the ecu. It took them longer because they dynoed tuned it and they also tuned it in the street. It's turbocharged and you have to play it much safer than tuning a N/A engine. I was very happy with the results. They could have made more power but i wasn't worried about showing dyno numbers.
Call the local tuners in your area and if you have time. Stop by and see for yourself. It's better to go to a place that someone has recommended. Price will vary from shop to shop.
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post #24 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-13-2006, 08:27 PM
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$2000 is a good deal. Some systems are more than that. Not including tuning.
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post #25 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-13-2006, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msiert
My engine builder charged me $1,000 to install the system
Was that including the hardware or in addition to the hardware???

Randy Lee

"HAVE another cookie!!" - Don Corrado Prizzi

Randy's Italian Lot:
1978 Sport Sedan - "Cecilia", a rustfree Alfetta
1990 Mondial T Cabrio - Engine major service, climate control overhaul, and interior tune up still to go - Short is on it!!
1958 Giullietta Sprint. "G.Sprint" No holds barred. 3.0 Liter 12 Valve V6 and Verde transaxle just to get warmed up!
1976 Alfetta GT. Twin 45 Dellortos. Alfetta maintainence drug while Cecilla gets restored.
1978 Alfetta GT. Ex Keith Martin, and getting a nice set of Euro Bumpers along with the rest of the good parts off the '76.
ON HOLD 196x Lancia Flaminia Sedan - name and the rest TBD.

Ex:
79 Spt Sdn. "Griswold" and never-driven '74 Spider sold to Harry Riley
74 Spider "Isabel" traded for "Cecilia" Thanks Ric!
(Look at Isabel now:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
!!)
1979 Sport Sedan Alfamatic. Traded to Wilbur for a very sweet bicycle - thanks!
All the parts cars chopped up or sent to Larry...
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post #26 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-14-2006, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msiert
Did not include hardware. The Autronic SM2 system adds $2,000 + to the cost.
Thanks! I am gathering info to try to make a case for building plug-and-play conversion kits, based on Megasquirt, for Spica cars.

Keep us informed how you like your "new" car.

Best,

Randy Lee

"HAVE another cookie!!" - Don Corrado Prizzi

Randy's Italian Lot:
1978 Sport Sedan - "Cecilia", a rustfree Alfetta
1990 Mondial T Cabrio - Engine major service, climate control overhaul, and interior tune up still to go - Short is on it!!
1958 Giullietta Sprint. "G.Sprint" No holds barred. 3.0 Liter 12 Valve V6 and Verde transaxle just to get warmed up!
1976 Alfetta GT. Twin 45 Dellortos. Alfetta maintainence drug while Cecilla gets restored.
1978 Alfetta GT. Ex Keith Martin, and getting a nice set of Euro Bumpers along with the rest of the good parts off the '76.
ON HOLD 196x Lancia Flaminia Sedan - name and the rest TBD.

Ex:
79 Spt Sdn. "Griswold" and never-driven '74 Spider sold to Harry Riley
74 Spider "Isabel" traded for "Cecilia" Thanks Ric!
(Look at Isabel now:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
!!)
1979 Sport Sedan Alfamatic. Traded to Wilbur for a very sweet bicycle - thanks!
All the parts cars chopped up or sent to Larry...

Last edited by randyleepublic; 10-14-2006 at 11:46 PM.
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post #27 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-15-2006, 07:50 PM
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...I can still hear the echoes of the battle-cries...

Some time ago, not too long ago, on this VERY forum, I was virtually stoned to death as the village-idiot - here on this very forum - for merely suggesting to compare my 700 USD, fully-programmable, stand-alone fuel AND spark, turn-key engine management systems - said 700 bucks to include an Alfa/Bosch-specific plug and play wiring harness specific to our Alfas...

The angry words over the MS that could be self-assembled for a parts-list totaling a mere 100 bucks!!!!

Now you guys want to seriously condone a dyno shop that charges 1500 bucks to build one AND another 2200 bucks on top of that to tune the %$#@*&^ thing!!!!

Why would we even talk about ANYTHING past a 700 dollar plug and play system that works when 1500-3700 is the alternative...? Especially when a vendor is making 1400 bucks for the assembly that I was told was just a bit of soldering....!?

Full-Race 6-Speed Getrag 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; 1993 155 TS 2.0; 1999 24 Valve 3.0 916 GTV; 1995 164Q; 1987 Milano Verde; 1966 GTV Stepnose
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post #28 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-16-2006, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junglejustice
Especially when a vendor is making 1400 bucks for the assembly that I was told was just a bit of soldering....!?
Hold it my friend! My understanding from your email was that the 1400 included a complete conversion for a 74 GTV running Spica. That's a hell of a lot more work than just some soldering.

1) Source, configure, and install a timing sensor - preferably on the crank.

2) Re-plumb the fuel system replacing the Spica fuel pump with a pre-pump and higher-pressure efi pump.

3) Remove, machine, replace the Spica mani to accept the efi injectors and machine and plumb same to provide an accurate map signal.

4) Source and install efi injectors.

5) Install map sensor.

6) Source and custom weld in an o2 sensor.

7) Mount a spark unit in the engine compt.

8) Figure out an interior location for the box.

9) Wire everything through the firewall including connections between all of the above.

All that is just what I, a complete virgin can imagine. I am probably leaving out a number of items

John, that is a lot of work, and for a Spica car it will all have to be done whether we're talking Ms, Gt, or Em.

You'd be lucky to get that for 1500 w/out the box.

Of course the $64k question is the quality of the above work. If it is not done to a high standard, no amount of dyno time is going to make up for it. If it is, an average driver should not need any dyno time - just some map time that they can easily do themselves if the software is any good.

The current cost of an assembled MS box is about $450 and includes a harness, but nothing else. At that price, I will be the first to agree that Go-Tech looks like a good alternative for the price, (unless one "solders their own"). Still, for either system to convert a spica car requires a lot more stuff. So lets be sure to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. It's one thing to convert an existing efi car - a whole nother critter to convert one that is not.

OK?

Best regards,

Randy Lee

"HAVE another cookie!!" - Don Corrado Prizzi

Randy's Italian Lot:
1978 Sport Sedan - "Cecilia", a rustfree Alfetta
1990 Mondial T Cabrio - Engine major service, climate control overhaul, and interior tune up still to go - Short is on it!!
1958 Giullietta Sprint. "G.Sprint" No holds barred. 3.0 Liter 12 Valve V6 and Verde transaxle just to get warmed up!
1976 Alfetta GT. Twin 45 Dellortos. Alfetta maintainence drug while Cecilla gets restored.
1978 Alfetta GT. Ex Keith Martin, and getting a nice set of Euro Bumpers along with the rest of the good parts off the '76.
ON HOLD 196x Lancia Flaminia Sedan - name and the rest TBD.

Ex:
79 Spt Sdn. "Griswold" and never-driven '74 Spider sold to Harry Riley
74 Spider "Isabel" traded for "Cecilia" Thanks Ric!
(Look at Isabel now:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
!!)
1979 Sport Sedan Alfamatic. Traded to Wilbur for a very sweet bicycle - thanks!
All the parts cars chopped up or sent to Larry...

Last edited by randyleepublic; 10-16-2006 at 03:18 AM.
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post #29 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-16-2006, 06:30 AM
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Nope! I know what you are saying - AND agree - if that were the case, but as stated before - we installed a complete TWM t-body setup, complete with FPR, fuel rails, with the Redline-Weber software, crank pick-up, TPS etc etc etc. It was started and driven over there! They didn't do the SPICA converting - we did!

We sent a running car over to the (un-named) dyno-shop who apparently didn't like the Redline software (presumably because they could not tune it.) They took it upon themselves to remove some of the Redline-Weber components, build the MS and install it and then tune it and proceeded to charge 3700 bucks for that!!!!!

And it ran like ****akie!

After that, we ripped the MS crap out, the GoTech went on, we bumped the key and it runs smooth - it is REAL close on the air/fuel ratios too! That car ran like a champ on-track at PR this past Saturday (on GoTech!)

As a side-note; I saw the ripped-off owner of the other car at the track on Saturday as well - the GTV6 owner that I mentioned before who paid 2200 to have a GoTech tuned that I INSTALLED AND DROVE over to said shop - and he said that after taking his car to another mechanic (because the 2200 tuning-bill notwithstanding, that car was still running like crap), they found that said dyno-shop had unplugged the freekin' vacuum hose from the back of the GoTech in the process (part of the tuning bill I'm sure) and that the car was running super rich! I think that they were trying to sabotage the GoTech install presumably to sell more 3700 dollar Megasquirts! Any way, it is better now, but needs to get back on a dyno...!

My car with GoTech - self installed by me (very limited skills) and tuned for a total of 480- bucks on another dyno ran great all day! I am making right at 180 horses at the wheels from a stock, 18 year-old 3.0 with NO internal mods on the GoTech (with the restrictive AFM removed, proper headers and larger intake plenum and runners...) all for 700 bucks - no soldering, no wiring (hook up positive and negative power) and no 3700 bucks either. Total Gotech bill = 1180.

Viva la GoTech!

So the way I see the math - said dyno shop can correct this as follows and have a shot at redemption;

5700 total bill; MS crap returned = 1500 off of the bill. 500 paid for one car tuned (sort off) and 500 bucks paid for another car tuned (sort off) - we'll consider this school money = a 3200 "credit" if you will to be used at a rate of $540 dollars per tuning (a fair price for a basic first tuning ON CARS THAT ARE DRIVEN OVER THERE WITH ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS ALREADY INSTALLED), for a total of 6 future tunings credit...

Full-Race 6-Speed Getrag 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; 1993 155 TS 2.0; 1999 24 Valve 3.0 916 GTV; 1995 164Q; 1987 Milano Verde; 1966 GTV Stepnose

Last edited by junglejustice; 10-16-2006 at 06:49 AM.
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post #30 of 53 (permalink) Old 10-16-2006, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junglejustice
Nope! I know what you are saying - AND agree - if that were the case, but as stated before - we installed a complete TWM t-body setup, complete with FPR, fuel rails, with the Redline-Weber software, crank pick-up, TPS etc etc etc. It was started and driven over there! They didn't do the SPICA converting - we did!..
Oh Crikey!! I didn't know you did all that to the GTV before taking it over

So for $1400 he took a $400 box and pluged it in...

Get my shotgun!

Best,

P.S. Please don't refer to MS as "crap". It's not megasquirt's fault that it was used as a gouging tool. The CRAP is in the head of that individual!

Randy Lee

"HAVE another cookie!!" - Don Corrado Prizzi

Randy's Italian Lot:
1978 Sport Sedan - "Cecilia", a rustfree Alfetta
1990 Mondial T Cabrio - Engine major service, climate control overhaul, and interior tune up still to go - Short is on it!!
1958 Giullietta Sprint. "G.Sprint" No holds barred. 3.0 Liter 12 Valve V6 and Verde transaxle just to get warmed up!
1976 Alfetta GT. Twin 45 Dellortos. Alfetta maintainence drug while Cecilla gets restored.
1978 Alfetta GT. Ex Keith Martin, and getting a nice set of Euro Bumpers along with the rest of the good parts off the '76.
ON HOLD 196x Lancia Flaminia Sedan - name and the rest TBD.

Ex:
79 Spt Sdn. "Griswold" and never-driven '74 Spider sold to Harry Riley
74 Spider "Isabel" traded for "Cecilia" Thanks Ric!
(Look at Isabel now:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
!!)
1979 Sport Sedan Alfamatic. Traded to Wilbur for a very sweet bicycle - thanks!
All the parts cars chopped up or sent to Larry...

Last edited by randyleepublic; 10-16-2006 at 01:16 PM.
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