123ignition distributor - 15000 miles road test - Page 33 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 23Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #481 of 510 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 12:57 PM
But Mad North-Northwest
Platinum Subscriber
 
Gubi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Posts: 9,668
The bluetooth version has a vacuum port for vacuum advance.

Vacuum advance gives you better economy at cruise and improves part-throttle responsiveness. It does not change WOT power or anything to do with deceleration. If you have a place to draw vacuum from it is a good thing.

Some Dellortos have a vacuum takeoff on the #1 runner, and some Alfa intake manifolds have a vacuum takeoff on #1. Either will work. I have the latter on my GTV and have vacuum advance set up with the bluetooth 123 distributor: it works very well.

Tom

1963 Giulia Spider (1750 engine)
1974 GTV
1991 Spider
Former: 1987 Milano Gold
Gubi is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #482 of 510 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 02:23 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
alfaparticle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbia SC
Posts: 12,691
Quote:
Vacuum advance gives you better economy at cruise
That may well be the theory but in practice you may have a hard time noticing it. I have fully mapped ignition on my GTV6 and I spent some time programming more advance at lower manifold pressure and data logging performance and I saw nothing. Better cruise fuel economy came from programming the fuel for higher AFR in the appropriate rpm/MAP range.
It is a darned sight easier to check your ignition advance with a strobe if it is not being influenced by manifold pressure.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
alfaparticle is online now  
post #483 of 510 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 02:55 PM
Registered User
 
Tom Frasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: New York
Posts: 1,721
Garage
I installed it in the 64 Sprint (no vacuum) WOW runs like a train....used the GTA advance curve ..run 101 octane ...runs cool and strong, always felt a bit uncomfortable with the mechanical for long excursions..

The older I get.. the faster I was....
Tom
Tom Frasca is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #484 of 510 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 03:15 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 1,868
Garage
The Bluetooth version in my car (GTJunior 1.6) has the vacuum advance.
My car did not originally have a vacuum advance system, but lots of period cars did
I do not have it connected to anything at the moment, will play later

The Bluetooth 123 is available with or without vacuum for our cars
123ignition

Give them a ring/call?

'66 1600 Duetto | '73 1600 GTJunior | '03 156 1.9JTD Sportwagon | '11 Giulietta QV (wow, revelation) | I really don't need this many Alfa's...

Last edited by Craig_m67; 05-23-2019 at 03:20 PM.
Craig_m67 is offline  
post #485 of 510 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 03:29 PM
But Mad North-Northwest
Platinum Subscriber
 
Gubi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Posts: 9,668
You sure? I see the BT and USB ones as only available with the vacuum advance option. The one with the preset curves is available with/without vacuum.

On my GTV with Dellortos I'm pulling vacuum from the plenum and running ~18 deg advance at idle (6 deg static + 12 deg vacuum from memory.) Had to dial back the idle RPMs by about 300 after hooking up the vacuum, and she runs like a striped ape. No issues with pinging as once you get on throttle the vacuum advance drops off.

I've been so happy with it that I plan to add a vacuum takeoff to the Giulia (dual DCOE) so I can use vacuum advance there as well. Currently have a 123 on that car but the vacuum is disconnected since nowhere currently to hook it up. Will do a writeup after I implement this.

Tom

1963 Giulia Spider (1750 engine)
1974 GTV
1991 Spider
Former: 1987 Milano Gold
Gubi is online now  
post #486 of 510 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 05:41 PM
Registered User
 
Tom Frasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: New York
Posts: 1,721
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gubi View Post
You sure? I see the BT and USB ones as only available with the vacuum advance option. The one with the preset curves is available with/without vacuum.

On my GTV with Dellortos I'm pulling vacuum from the plenum and running ~18 deg advance at idle (6 deg static + 12 deg vacuum from memory.) Had to dial back the idle RPMs by about 300 after hooking up the vacuum, and she runs like a striped ape. No issues with pinging as once you get on throttle the vacuum advance drops off.

I've been so happy with it that I plan to add a vacuum takeoff to the Giulia (dual DCOE) so I can use vacuum advance there as well. Currently have a 123 on that car but the vacuum is disconnected since nowhere currently to hook it up. Will do a writeup after I implement this.
Just plug off with a dust cover ...works great...Believe me I was a skeptic..I am an analog guy living in a digital world. The phone app is great play with advance , in a given situation

The older I get.. the faster I was....
Tom
Tom Frasca is offline  
post #487 of 510 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 06:15 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posts: 4,063
In one of his tuning books (and possibly others) David Vizard comments that he prefers using vacuum advance distributors on all his street cars. Bruce/Alfanuts has a European Alfetta in his Super which has a Bosch electronic distributor w/ vacuum. He regularly gets 28 mpg.

Jim . . . '72 Super 1300, '70, 1750GTV, 2nd series,
'62, Lancia Flaminia Zagato3c, 2nd series
180OUT is offline  
post #488 of 510 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 06:16 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
gigem75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: East Texas
Posts: 6,267
The Bluetooth has a vac connection and a separate curve for programming it. I've never used it with my Webs though. Haven't seen the need since it runs so well without it. Another nice thing about the Bluetooth is the ability to retard the timing a degree or two at high revs (I have the retard set to come in @6800) to reduce the possibility of detonation which cannot be felt at high rpms.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
2017 Giulia Q4
74 GTV restored daily driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
gigem75 is online now  
post #489 of 510 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
alfaparticle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbia SC
Posts: 12,691
How does the rev limiter work? Is it a hard cut or retard or skipping sparks?

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
alfaparticle is online now  
post #490 of 510 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 08:24 PM
But Mad North-Northwest
Platinum Subscriber
 
Gubi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Posts: 9,668
From the documentation: “Programmable soft rev limiter ( max 7900 rpm ), 60% of the sparks will cut off”

Tom

1963 Giulia Spider (1750 engine)
1974 GTV
1991 Spider
Former: 1987 Milano Gold
Gubi is online now  
post #491 of 510 (permalink) Old 05-26-2019, 12:40 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 1,868
Garage
You can measure the vacuum from the carbs using the map sensor in the Bluetooth 123 dizzy.

As an exercise in wasting time on a lazy Sunday, I hooked up just one (of 4) vacuum port(s) from my carbs (Delorto) to see what it measures. The interface showed -0.3bar at idle (800rpm) and a little less at around 600rpm (fiddling with the advance). It easily moved around with RPM/throttle. Was actually quite a stable reading, the pulses that we’re present from just the one port seemed to be smoothed out by the MAP sensor/interface latency

My (original) interest was in using it to balance the carbs. Using two ports and an inline tap to switch between vacuum sources (carbs). I don’t think there will be enough resolution on the interface for that so have moved onto a DIY manometer with some clear glass beer bottles that need to be emptied, I might use four . all in all, as an exercise in wasting a lazy afternoon in the sun I’m quite pleased.
Attached Images
 

'66 1600 Duetto | '73 1600 GTJunior | '03 156 1.9JTD Sportwagon | '11 Giulietta QV (wow, revelation) | I really don't need this many Alfa's...

Last edited by Craig_m67; 05-26-2019 at 12:44 AM.
Craig_m67 is offline  
post #492 of 510 (permalink) Old 05-26-2019, 09:49 AM Thread Starter
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
alfaparticle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbia SC
Posts: 12,691
At small throttle openings a small change in throttle position makes a large change in MAP. At large throttle openings a large change in throttle position makes a small change in MAP. So MAP should be a good measurement for balancing the throttle plates at idle.

Ed Prytherch
79 Spider
76 Suzuki GT500
2011 Jaguar XKR

A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
alfaparticle is online now  
post #493 of 510 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 04:31 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
gigem75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: East Texas
Posts: 6,267
We talked about that it would be nice to have a "save as" function. It does in a way. When you edit a curve and save it the original file name appears but you can edit that text. I just added two degrees of advance to the first two data points and saved it as the "b" version of the original file. Used the tune function to test it and liked it so I saved it and downloaded it to the car. No two ways about it that is really slick. Also no need to set the timing when you first start a new motor, just download a previous file. On another note I'm really happy with the Alfaholics forged 11:1 CP pistons. The motor pulls with authority.

The passenger seat is 15 miles an hour faster than the drivers seat.

currently
2017 Giulia Q4
74 GTV restored daily driver
71 Berlina in 2L restored driver
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
1974 GTV
1977 Spider
1974 Spider
gigem75 is online now  
post #494 of 510 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 05:31 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 1,868
Garage
To be honest, I’m still struggling with the app and setting TDC with a strobe
The interface could be less confusing
(Yes, I have the most recent update)

In other news I did balance my Dell’Ortos with two salad dressing bottles and some blue dye, made a big difference to high speed running
Tom Frasca likes this.

'66 1600 Duetto | '73 1600 GTJunior | '03 156 1.9JTD Sportwagon | '11 Giulietta QV (wow, revelation) | I really don't need this many Alfa's...
Craig_m67 is offline  
post #495 of 510 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 06:46 PM
Registered User
 
Tom Frasca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: New York
Posts: 1,721
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig_m67 View Post
To be honest, I’m still struggling with the app and setting TDC with a strobe
The interface could be less confusing
(Yes, I have the most recent update)

In other news I did balance my Dell’Ortos with two salad dressing bottles and some blue dye, made a big difference to high speed running

The older I get.. the faster I was....
Tom
Tom Frasca is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome