Naturally-Aspirated Giulia Quadrifoglio V6 - Ferrari / Alfa Romeo F154 V6 Engine; - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 12:29 AM Thread Starter
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Naturally-Aspirated Giulia Quadrifoglio V6 - Ferrari / Alfa Romeo F154 V6 Engine;

O-oh! Now what...!? Look what showed up last week!

The Alfa-gods and I concur that the Italians short-changed us when they decided not to offer a normally-aspirated (and perhaps larger displacement) V6 engine option in the new Giulia range! Something in the middle perhaps - between the base 2.0 litre turbo options and the amazing twin turbo V6 of the Quadrifoglio - would have been nice. All I asked for was even just a 6 / 7-speed manual, but no...

Well, as punishment for their transgressions, I have decided to build it. (If it pleases the Alfa-gods.) The turbos are off and so are the dual intake manifolds, the two drive-by-wire throttle-bodies and the dual water-to-air inter-coolers! We're going with 6 head-direct ITBs (individual throttle-bodies with nice tall stacks and bell-mouth trumpets) and a nice set of custom TIG-welded "bundle-of-snakes" exhaust headers in stainless!
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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 12:46 AM Thread Starter
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Normally-Aspirated Ferrari / Alfa F154-V6 Engine

The motor only had 4500 miles on it, but I'll be cracking this Italian Easter-egg come next weekend sometime and see what's inside it. (I have not been able to find any pictures online of the Ferrari 488 twin turbo, or the Alfa V6 torn down to the pistons and heads, so it's all guessing at this point. Anybody else have pictures?

I saw the pictures of the training engine down south a few months ago, but that only had the valve covers off and the rear cam-chain setup exposed.

It is my understanding that there may well be some wet-liners in there (as with it's V6 Busso predecessor), so perhaps there will be enough room for larger liners to accommodate a bore-size larger than the current 86.5mm. We've gone as large as 100 / 101 / 102 / 103mm bore on the old engines, so let's see what she can take. (Currently, the 82mm stroke crank is the only option available form Ferrari and Alfa Romeo, but if I can prove the base concept with only a larger bore, there are a number of companies out there that will make a forged crank of any stroke and journal specification.)

90mm on the 82mm stroke only gets me to 3.1+ litres. A 100mm bore gets us to 3.8+ litres! Let's see - may very well be limited to the current bore for some reason.

We'll be bumping compression to around 12.8:1 and with it - installing forged internals (probably Wossner pistons and Pauter connecting rods.) CNC-porting the intake and exhaust, larger combustion chambers, larger valves, billet cams with more duration, lift and overlap. We'll keep the Direct Injection, as well as the variable cam adjustment on all 4 cams (but we'll dump the dual ECUs and wiring harness in favor of a high-end fully-programmable, stand-alone engine management system...)

Motec may be my only option here to deal with a full-sequential fuel / full-sequential ignition setup, as well as the four variable cams AND direct injection.

The ultimate goal would be to see if we can get the same 500+ horsepower from it - naturally aspirated. Figure that if we revved it +2000rpm, we could get there.

Full-Race 6-Speed Getrag 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; 1993 155 TS 2.0; 1999 24 Valve 3.0 916 GTV; 1995 164Q; 1987 Milano Verde; 1966 GTV Stepnose
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post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 09:17 AM
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Are you sure there is a motor under that?
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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 09:42 AM
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Yeah, when you get there, post some pics of the bare long block with no intake. And maybe some rough dimensions.

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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-29-2019, 11:23 AM
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Why make it bigger ... ?

If you're chasing hp, they already solved that with turbos.

I'd concentrate on making it shatter wine glasses with amazing sound, like a 155 DTM car.
Pete
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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 08:47 PM Thread Starter
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Why make it bigger ... ? If you're chasing hp, they already solved that with turbos. I'd concentrate on making it shatter wine glasses with amazing sound, like a 155 DTM car. Pete
Why does a dog lick it's own balls...?

You know me and my naturally-aspirated compulsion! It takes FAR MORE talent, skill, experience, engineering, cost and effort to make power - REAL power - pure engineering, normally-aspirated, raw power from an NA build. There are people out there who walk in here, or that one encounters at events (normally the younger generation, or the yuk-yuk roundy-round crowd), who will pop off with stupid kakka like "...why don't you just slap a turbo on it...? OR "...why don't you just throw an LS in it..." and I just want to kakkas in my pantalones - if you know what I mean?

First - these questions show how ignorant people can be; those types of conversions take MAJOR effort to accomplish clean and sorted - you don't slap and you don't throw anything to make it happen - it takes a-LOT of effort - so I just want to slap the taste out of the next guy's mouth that I hear say that.

Secondly, it's crude to mix and match brands in my not so humble opinion. It's like having sex with your sister - no matter how hot she is, you just don't do it. The LSxxx swap is undeniable for the cost and power gains (even the relative simplicity of it - when you consider the huge range of kits out there available to put that bloody plant in just about ANYTHING), but it's just not appropriate...

Third and last; installing a turbo straight onto a factory line-produced, sloppy tolerance, port mismatched, OEM setup, is just wrong - it's cheating. It's lazy and it's sloppy. Even if you do install forged internals first and lower the compression - you still have crappy factory ports, crappy intakes and compromised tolerances for the most part. Most guys even say it "...dude, it doesn't matter - you're forcing air through there anyway..."

What if - just an if - you could clean all of that up, get the balancing right, the port-matching - everything - make MORE power NA and THEN turbo THAT setup!? It's like I tell these guys; just take a V6 - ANY NA V6 without variable cams, without direct injection, without knock control - just take any analog NA V6 and just make 200 horsepower! Try it - it takes REAL work! Any displacement - 3.8 Buick, 4.0 Ford, GM - any of them!

We're pushing 425+ at the crank from the Busso-based 24 valvers these days and that takes REAL effort and skill. No knock control. No variable cams. No vario intakes or VANOS. No direct injection. I'm the most digital thing in that car!

And yes - we will be shattering whine glasses. I just want to see what I can gain in displacement, in dome size, in valve size, in port size, in cam profile and in higher revs and go from there! Who knows, perhaps some day, I would STILL turbo THAT setup! For now - it's all about NA and then yes - probably a 155 DTM homage build...
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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-19-2019, 08:51 AM Thread Starter
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Finally got some time to start the 2.9 Quadrifoglio V6 motor tear-down... Oh look! An engine...

Played around a bit with a mock-up of some AT Power ITBs that I have here for a 911 project. Yes, these are round-port ITBs (the twin-plug 964 Porsche engine is still a 12 valve), but this F154 engine will have custom oval-port plenum adapters, with ATP's ellipse direct-to-head ITBs, obround velocity stacks and discorectangle trumpets (figured that I'd cover all of the basic nomenclatures for a stadium-shaped "sausage-body" port...)

What's really crazy is that the Alfa head has one side of the "stadium" shape sides veering off into a Hershey's Kiss shaped point in the middle!

Also, check out the four cylinder-deactivation solenoid ports on the passenger-side head!

Wild to see how WIDE this 90-degree engine is - compared to the 60-degree Busso that I am so used to working on. (Interesting side note; putting together a Vittorio Jano V6 - Dino - right now and it is a 65-degree V...!)
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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-19-2019, 09:47 AM
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Very nice.

How did you land on that length intake runner? Just a guess, but you're 16" to 18" from back of valve to trumpet top?

I like to play with my engine modeling programs and was wondering if you used one to determine runner length.

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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-19-2019, 10:02 AM
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Oh look! An engine...

Wild to see how WIDE this 90-degree engine is
First thing I thought - that's a wide engine.

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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-19-2019, 10:49 AM
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Almost all socket head capscrews... hardly any hex bolts anywhere, except for fittings of course. A real engineering exercise! And yep-- it's WIDE alright.

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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-19-2019, 12:02 PM
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Honestly that is quite surprising that they went for that many allen heads. not a very modern fastener. They tend to cam out unless you get the angles right and fully seat the socket. Something that in a production environment is hard to ensure. Torx (internal or external) is much better suited for this.

Its typical Alfa though, the old aluminium twin cams and busso V6s also had many allen heads everywhere.

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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 03:41 AM
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True carporn!

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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 03:16 PM
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True carporn!
Hmmm, I don't know ... sure looks better with the ITBs mocked up but a lot more work is required to make this modern engine a visual treat.

Pete

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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 09:38 AM
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Each to its own. I like the natural, minimalistic look ;-)

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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 08-21-2019, 03:07 PM
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Each to its own. I like the natural, minimalistic look ;-)
So do I, but the cam cover casting is horrid with all the lumps and bumps for I have no idea what.

Compare to any Busso v6, even the 4 valve ones with the coil covers removed, or Ferrari 206/246 v6, faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrr cleaner look. Modern engines are designed knowing that all will be hidden by a plastic cover, so they no longer care about looks
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