My race TS almost complete - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 36 (permalink) Old 12-18-2018, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Max Pershyn View Post
If you take a look at 164 with 1962 and 1995 engine (both with catalysts), you can notice the difference in specific torque and the torque curve.
1962 has 95.3 Nm/l, 1995 - 96.7 Nm/l
Also the torque curve of 1995 is flatter and longer, the engine has 193Nm at 5000rpm, but 1962 has 187 Nm at 4800rpm

So, the 1995 engine is more elastic and has better specific torque. However specific power of both engines is almost the same, 73.7 hp/l (1995) and 73.9 (1962). You are right, even in theory, there is no advantage of 155 head in a case of maximum or specific power. The only one difference, the maximum power is shifted from 5800 to 6000 rpm

Probably in tuned engines there is no noticable difference but based on the factory characteristics they improved the engine

Sent from my Z957 using Tapatalk
https://www.squadra-tuning.nl/chiptu...win-spark-kat/


https://www.squadra-tuning.nl/chiptu...co/155-2-0-ts/


https://www.squadra-tuning.nl/chiptu...rk-zonder-kat/

Conclusion: ditch the cat!
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post #17 of 36 (permalink) Old 12-18-2018, 01:44 PM
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As I understand also the shape and length of the complete intake line (including air filter) makes a difference as well
155 Kat - 143 HP, 187Nm
75 Kat - 145 HP, 186Nm
164 Kat - 145 HP, 193Nm

155 and 164 are the same engines but as you see under 164 bonnet it performs slightly better.

And yes, Chirico described that with Kat Twin Spark engine lost 5-8 HP

P.S. He also described how the choice for TS was made. In 1974, on behalf of AR, Autodelta tested 3 heads (standard, TS and 4 valve) on the standard engine block with the same carburators setup and the same exhaust. Basically it terms of the peak power the best was 16v, it had more than 160HP. But in terms of the torque and power delivery and fuel economy TS was the best.
So the decision was made, the equipment updated and in 1987 mass production started. The same time AR started to test different solutions and in 1988 presented TS with lamell valves (like in 2 strokes racing motorcycle engines) instead of VVT; 3 valves TS with VVT and 16 valves.

3 valves version outperformed 4 valves and had about 180HP. FIAT shelved this research and asked to use 16v TS head with cast iron FIAT engine block, as this solution was much cheaper.

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post #18 of 36 (permalink) Old 12-18-2018, 05:14 PM
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BTW - does anyone know a good source for valve guides on the TS heads? AH has them..but the price is crazy!
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post #19 of 36 (permalink) Old 12-19-2018, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Pershyn View Post
If you take a look at 164 with 1962 and 1995 engine (both with catalysts), you can notice the difference in specific torque and the torque curve.
1962 has 95.3 Nm/l, 1995 - 96.7 Nm/l
Also the torque curve of 1995 is flatter and longer, the engine has 193Nm at 5000rpm, but 1962 has 187 Nm at 4800rpm

So, the 1995 engine is more elastic and has better specific torque. However specific power of both engines is almost the same, 73.7 hp/l (1995) and 73.9 (1962). You are right, even in theory, there is no advantage of 155 head in a case of maximum or specific power. The only one difference, the maximum power is shifted from 5800 to 6000 rpm

Probably in tuned engines there is no noticable difference but based on the factory characteristics they improved the engine

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I think the torque is influenced by the longer stroke (too). So which part of the better performance is from the head and which from the crank and extra cc is not clear (to me at least).
I wonder why Formula GT and Alfaholics mainly use 75 heads when 155 really would be better. Even for their own cars.
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post #20 of 36 (permalink) Old 12-19-2018, 01:38 AM
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So my reasons are as follows.

In South Africa 75s were never sold. It almost impossible to find a 75 engine. Happily though we had many 164s and 155s in 8V so naturally this engine is easier to obtain. I wanted to stick to the 105 block and in my opinion this is the best way to make it all work. I already have a NOS 90mm crank in another engine and the Nm is much better with this crank. Using the Monosleeve allows for the safe use of 85mm Spruell pistons and thus a 100cc more than a 1962cc engine. As far as the looks go I believe the 155 head to be better looking than the clumsy 75 one. Personal choice and supply I guess.

As far as power goes, what you put in is what you get out. Unless you have back to back tested all the options then power figures and advantages of one over the other is all just useless opinion.

I have never seen a dyno graph of an engine like mine so one cannot speculate. I wanted a monosleeve TS injected engine but could not afford a real GTAm engine so this will just have to do for now.

Happy to share Dyno figures once installed but my 90mm 105 engine is much better than my identically built 88.5mm engine. Same everything!

Obviously one has to use 156mm rods in the 90mm stroke engine.

I would be very happy if this engines makes even 1hp more than my Nord 90mm engine. Very happy.
Why do you have to use 156mm rods with 90mm crank? I use nord rods (custom made 85 mm JE pistons, no monosleeve)... block is other way around btw, 155 block and 75 head and ITBs After one racing season its still in one piece..
curious about the dyno results from the 2000 nord with the 90mm.

Last edited by Veep; 12-19-2018 at 02:43 AM.
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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 12:58 PM
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Have a 2.0 TS in my berlina that is basically stock
interested in efi system used.
great thread

Peter Inshaw 59 Touring Spider 2.0, 63 Spider 1600, 67 GTV 1750, 91 Spider Veloce, 2018 Stelvio TI Sport
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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 08:29 PM
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That is a beautiful looking final build photo. What vehicle is this going in, and would you recommend against a newly overhauled twinspark for a daily driver if the parts are so tough to find? It seems there is a supplier for almost every part in the Nord engine but not the twinspark even though anyone you ask reports the TS outperforms the Nord. I don't know what I'm missing.
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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 08:49 PM
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TwinSpark components are hard to find in the US, but very few of the different parts are high-wear items. Maybe the ignition system could be challenging, but there are quite a few alternatives and easy to source from Europe or with an aftermarket system.

Mike
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San Diego, CA

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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 03-19-2019, 08:58 PM
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I completely neglected to consider that - are the high wear items also especially difficult to source, or did I mis-read what is actually a challenge in finding the appropriate parts to put together an engine with this desired configuration, but not in maintaining it or future overhauls when necessary?
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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 03-20-2019, 02:22 AM
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I completely neglected to consider that - are the high wear items also especially difficult to source, or did I mis-read what is actually a challenge in finding the appropriate parts to put together an engine with this desired configuration, but not in maintaining it or future overhauls when necessary?
as far as I know parts are no problem.

Knowledge on where to get also special items is widely spread.

development (camshafts, pistons etc) is still going on too.
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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 03-21-2019, 01:37 PM
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as far as I know parts are no problem.

Knowledge on where to get also special items is widely spread.

development (camshafts, pistons etc) is still going on too.
Ah, what a relief. Every once in a while I see a beautiful TS build like in the opening post and I'm reminded I too could one day build such an engine, with practice.
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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 06:47 AM Thread Starter
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Hi Guys,

My project is almost finished. finally got it running this weekend. Motec install after easter and then we should be good. What do you think, any recommendations?
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Capp, GTV18 and Sketchl like this.
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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 09:15 AM
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Only thingwrong with it is its not in my car!
Looks amazing, lots of hard work getting there so congrats
we expect driving videos you know, so be forewarned.
Cheers

Peter Inshaw 59 Touring Spider 2.0, 63 Spider 1600, 67 GTV 1750, 91 Spider Veloce, 2018 Stelvio TI Sport
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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 11:31 AM
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That is tidy!
Pete

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
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156 Series 1 v6 ... and remember it's all just opinions
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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 04-15-2019, 08:53 PM
How did you handle porting the cooling line from what is now the rear of the head?

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