Building a 200HP Twin Spark - Page 5 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #61 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-12-2010, 05:43 PM
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One of the aluminum wheel cleaners will strip off that oil discoloration. I've used McGuiars.

Robert
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post #62 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-12-2010, 06:03 PM Thread Starter
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Cleaner

Ken First I used an old can of citrus engine cleaner . It normal engine cleaner that smells nice .
That got the grease off and then this stuff.
ALUMIPREP NO. 33 from Aircraft Spruce It works great.
The next step will be to protect it with ALODINE 1001 from Aircraft Spruce


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[SIZE="2"]David Munro[/SIZE]
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post #63 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 01:17 AM
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Building a 200HP Twin Spark

Hi David,

I have been reading your posts with interest and commend you for sharing useful information with the Forum. I hope you project comes to the fruition that you are expecting as I understand you started with a target of 200hp and then purchased parts for a 210hp engine? I also undertand that you are hoping to do this on a CR in the elevens with a 92 octane fuel ?

It might be timely that I share with you my experience of building a 200HP TS.

Capacity 2009cc
CR 12.5:1
Fuel 98 octane or 108 avgas
Just short of 13mm lift cams
CP pistons (custom)
47mm intake 38mm exhaust
Carillo rods, ARP bolts
Fully ported and flowed head
46mm throttle bodies
Tuned length intakes and extractors
4.5kg flywheel
Motec ECU
Wasted spark
No distributors used

Notwithsatnding using all the right "goodies", the best this engine would make is 200hp and 160ft/lbs torque @ 7000rpm.

At around 198-200HP, these engines seem to reach the "glass ceiling" of power beyond which nothing short of black magic seems to get it higher (without forced induction). So my very best wishes in your quest.
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post #64 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Mikinoz View Post
...At around 198-200HP, these engines seem to reach the "glass ceiling" of power beyond which nothing short of black magic seems to get it higher (without forced induction)....
Autodelta built 220 HP (bare) engines in the late 60's. And I think Murray's engine (implied from chassis dyno, not tested on a free engine stand) is over 200 hp on pump gas and only 10+ CR.

There are a lot of modern engines that are well over 100 hp/liter, so it is possible. Some of the limitation seems to be the combustion chamber shape, where narrow valve angles make a difference. Perhaps the TS head will be the gateway....

Robert
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post #65 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 12:50 PM
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I think we need what we don't have which is the narrow angle head to get a direct charge entry. The TS head is capable of nearly getting there but what is missing is 4 valves per cylinder. It's a pitty the 2nd generation TS (Fiat) engine head is not compatible with the Nord block. That's how modern engines get there and so the challenge remains especially with 92 octane which dictates lower CR and reduced volumetric efficiencies.

Yes Autodelta got 115bhp/litre from the 2 litre V8 in the Daytona 33/2 @11:1 CR and 8800rpm but don't forget that in the old days they used to have their own fuel chemists to make up witches brews for fuel..
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post #66 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 12:58 PM Thread Starter
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When you say narrow valve angle you mean more like the Nord head ?

I think (sometimes about non-Alfa stuff) that the TS gives more swirl and therefor a better burn ?

What cam did you use ?


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[SIZE="2"]David Munro[/SIZE]
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1969 Spider JR Twin Spark
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post #67 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 01:18 PM
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Hello David,

No. I mean the TS

The Nord head is not narrow angle and has more curvature in the inlet port than the TS.
I originally used the 440C from here :
Tighe Cams Profiles
But later used a set from a southern supplier, Vin Sharp. The only difference was a slight difference in the lift between inlet and exhaust but it improved the bottem end torque curve by eliminating a hole around 4300rpm.
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post #68 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-14-2010, 05:08 PM Thread Starter
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Yes I see that I was confused . And I am still a bit .

So the Nord is wide angle then the TS is narrower and the Fiat narrower still ?


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post #69 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-15-2010, 06:37 AM
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re: 200HP TS

Hello there,
By way of an experiment, I recently bought a 147 2L TS 16-valve cylinder head which had been damaged (due to the dreaded timing belt snap syndrome). It cost me less than the shipping to get it to me!

I have a spare Nord 2L block and crank, to source the crank for my Alfa 75 TS conversion, and it had seemed from measuring up photos that the head didn't look to be too far different. When the head arrived I drilled out the bolt/stud holes from the original 10mm to 12mm, and the head sits straight onto the Nord 2L block.

The cylinder centres aren't right, since the 147 engine is based around an 83mm bore, but if a 1750 block has the same stud centres as the 2L, and with even cylinder spacing unlike the 2L, it looks to me as if a 147 16-valve head will fit on an overbored 1750 block.

I know that the timing cover end would need to be fixed, but as a non-pressurised area, either by combustion pressure or oil pressure, that shouldn't be too hard.

Just musing really

Angus

Last edited by AlfaMac; 12-15-2010 at 06:40 AM. Reason: addition
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post #70 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-15-2010, 12:11 PM
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Building a 200HP Twin Spark

A simple test of compatability would be to place a head gasket from the Nord block onto the Fiat head to see if the bores, oil & water passages align.

The blocks for the 101,105, 116, & the TS engine are essentially all the same so a confirmation via this test could see that head being installed on any of these engines going back to the sixties !!
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post #71 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-15-2010, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlfaMac View Post
...I have a spare Nord 2L block and crank, to source the crank for my Alfa 75 TS conversion, and it had seemed from measuring up photos that the head didn't look to be too far different. When the head arrived I drilled out the bolt/stud holes from the original 10mm to 12mm, and the head sits straight onto the Nord 2L block...
Hey, I love those crazy mods! post some pics please!

Paco.

- SNO Director, Spain branch, Barcelona
- '90 2.0 Spider -- '93 164 QV -- '93 155 2.0 TS -- '02 156 2.5 V6 -- '?? FMG 3.8 Project
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post #72 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-16-2010, 11:08 AM
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Hello Paco,
I'm in the midst of moving house at the moment, so it's difficult to even see into the garage never mind reach anything

We'll be in the new house in mid January, so hold on until then and I'll post some pics.

Angus

(With apologies to 69Alfa for the thread jack)

Last edited by AlfaMac; 12-16-2010 at 11:11 AM. Reason: addition
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post #73 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-16-2010, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by 69alfa View Post
Yes I see that I was confused . And I am still a bit .

So the Nord is wide angle then the TS is narrower and the Fiat narrower still ?
yes wide angle generally means curved intake port and tall slow burning CC shape.

plus side is they have huge valves for high flow... however the velocity is slow at low revs hence the poor low end of really built up nord motors.


my 2 cents
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post #74 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-16-2010, 02:43 PM
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One of the reasons the Nord head looses performance at low rpm is the sharp curve in the intake ports, coupled with the desirable (for high end performance) high valve overlap. Look over Murray's thread for a novel and apparently successful solution - he adapted the VVT mechanism, on both intake and exhaust to the engine computer to vary the valve overlap. He gets pretty good torque over a wide range of rpm.

Robert
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post #75 of 256 (permalink) Old 12-20-2010, 06:51 PM Thread Starter
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By By VVT

Time to say Bye Bye to the VVT solenoid.

I took it apart and make a plug to fill the hole .

First I cut the plug out with a hole saw and then mounted the plug in the drill press using a bolt and some nuts . I used a file to get it just the right size and then made the VVT lock nut into an die of sorts .

I ended up with very shallow threads but it works . Anyone have a 28mm die ? I will weld the center hole closed but not until I get a new tank of argon for the Tig welder.

A bit of anaerobic sealer should stop any oil leaks and hold it in place . Then I am going to paint the whole thing black . Or should It be silver ?
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[SIZE="2"]David Munro[/SIZE]
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Last edited by 69alfa; 02-23-2011 at 06:41 PM. Reason: spelling
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