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post #1 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 06:52 AM Thread Starter
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Resto - How Much is TOO Much

Hemmings: FIVA: “Mint” condition restorations equivalent to customization, should be rejected.


https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2017/1...ed/?refer=news
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post #2 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 07:24 AM
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An interesting discussion. Sentiment has evolved on this issue over time; 20 years ago concours restorations were the norm, while today there is a greater appreciation of leaving as much patina as possible (which is what I think the FIVA people are espousing). But who knows where the next generation will stand on this (or if anyone will even care in the 2040's)?

Also, it's fine to take the FIVA's stand when you are dealing with high-end cars that have led sheltered lives. Their paint, interiors, etc. do not tend to get destroyed by being left outdoors, and their bodies aren't banged-up by teen aged prior owners. Common folk who work on series-production Alfas don't have the luxury of just cleaning the leather interior, polishing the triple-chrome plated brightwork, and calling the job done. The starting points for our projects generally require so much rust and accident repair that a full, bare-metal restoration is necessary.
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post #3 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 07:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfajay View Post
Also, it's fine to take the FIVA's stand when you are dealing with high-end cars that have mostly led sheltered lives.
The "V" in FIVA stands for vehicle. They are concerned with much more than just cars (bicycles, motorcycles, trucks, railway material, etc.). Their guidelines are largely intended to preserve technical accuracy in a cultural and/or historical context, so that future generations may understand in what quality commercial goods were made.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]

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post #4 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 09:00 PM
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I think that older restorations are great, but many cars need complete restoration in order to be driven. I do not like people who are not the original owner saying that their car is in original condition. I have a one family owned 1961 Sprint Veloce and it was repainted two times. I kept the original interior, but the cloth was in very poor condition and was used as a pattern for the new interior. I was fortunate to have the interior replaced with original materials that were ordered from Italy. I am the original owner of a 1988 Milano Verde and half of the car is original paint. The interior is original and the rear seats need to be recovered due to sun damage. I do not think that most of the younger generation have any interest in cars older than 1970 and most cars including my cars will probably be recycled one day.
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post #5 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 09:42 PM
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My 156v6 is what I would consider a pretty original car, ie. engine bay, interior and boot inside, etc. are all completely original but she has had a semi repaint and many stone chips that I touch up (with a paint colour that is not quite right but better than leaving uncovered) ... and she has had a minor hit up the rear which ideally would mean a replacement bumper, but I cannot afford that and it's hardly noticeable. This car is only 16 years old, but less than 10,000 km's per year on average and I've added ~40k of them in the short time I've had her.

To find a 105 series GTV as original would surely have to mean a car that has failed when new and been parked in a garage, or one that was never used ... and an Alfa that is not used ... ***!

I really don't know why magazines go on about this. Yes a perfectly original car is ideal, but it is a car and if old will need many items replaced to keep it as a safe "car".

The answer is quite simple, restore to original condition and then drive the snot out of it and this will cause patina to return. Repeat as required
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156 Series 1 v6 ... and remember it's all just opinions
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post #6 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 07:29 AM
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Interesting read...this comment nails it for me.. “An exceptional amount of original historic material is lost in so called ‘Concours restorations,’ which exaggerate an imaginary mint condition,” Thomas Kohler, one of the driving forces behind the Charter of Turin, wrote in an article included in the Handbook

I have always supported the idea to retain as much originality as possible.. There are far too many incursions on it for the sake of "better than new" or if cost was no object, the factory would have done it "my way".

The biggest offenses are-- media blasting to smithereens any original cast finish off parts especially alloy; powder coating parts; plating parts beyond original recognition; wet-look paints that reflect like a mirror; replacing good original parts with after-market inferior parts (arguably junk) for the sake of economics and convenience; new fasteners, especially SS when the originals should be as they are, only de-greased and cleaned; even glass with small defects and scratches should be retained; instrumentation upgrades; and probably the worst offense is making the bottom of the car look like the top....... just to name a few offenses that come to mind now. Until the public learns to accept patina as something that deserves preservation, the trend will continue it's present course to recklessly wipe it out. At least someone is raising a flag on reversing the present course from "restoration" to real preservation.
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post #7 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 08:41 AM
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I occasionally find myself struggling to find the balance between over-restored and equally untruthful intentionally retained flaws.

There is not a single definition for owner preferences. Some like to drive the crap out of their cars, so visible signs of use and decisions that improve performance and reliability are pluses, i.e. Pertronix, Koni, LED instrument bulbs. That describes me. Another owner (or potential buyer) will accept only what appears perfect, no blemishes. This calls for very shiny paint (new, well polished lacquer has a beautiful shine... for awhile), and all of the possible stickers.

So, a single answer to the OP's question is not really possible.

I really like my nearly-perfect, slightly modified, hotrod 102. Shortly, and if I can summon some rarely-employed self discipline, I'll have an as-close-to-new-as-I-can-do stock 102. I'll probably relent and include a few things to improve the next owner's driving experience, but they'll be hard to spot.
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Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #8 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 03:18 PM
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That's also a problem with airplane museums, in that they sometimes overdo a restoration above and beyond what the airplane looked like out of the factory. I remember one story we heard while visiting the Smithsonian Museum Silverhill Restoration branch out at Andrews AFB. Looking a restored Messerschmidt 262, thought it looked really sharp, but maybe too shiny. Mentioned that to the guide, and he said that an elderly German visitor commented on the same thing, saying that the airplane he was looking at was far nicer than the one he flew, new from the factory, not realistic, lol.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

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post #9 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 03:56 PM Thread Starter
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180out and I have debated this extensively over 1/2 lb burgers in Blanco to a draw. Clearly factors to consider are: provenance, rarity vs. mass numbers made, and age, and modified by practicality including "starting condition" vs. resto resources and intended usage ("daily" vs. Sunday driver). IMO the article speaks to older and upper-end cars and not as much to our more proletariat 50's+ Alfas (SS's, SZ's, 102's, etc. excepted - rarity). Clearly dealer's (owner's) choice rules - your car, your rules. But sale prices seem to be supporting more original older rarer cars.

There is something special about examining the older used and somewhat original cars at a vintage event like the Mille Miglia. The rock chips, scrapes, dings, bits of straw, worn stained leather and patina are breathtaking compared to the rows of restored shiny and near-perfect Merc 300's. But this isn't an S2 Spider. I don't think Giulia sedans for example at 550,000 made will achieve that provenance, but the early S1's are getting very rare on sale sites. I have a very original one and struggle with how much to "upgrade". I've been sitting on new royal blue wool carpets for 2 years. The old are threadbare and patched. But I have my 72 Super w/ 2L and EI, stiffened suspension, etc. for the daily frey and don't feel bad as there are thousands of them. More and more concourses are adding "preservation" categories. My 65 Super falls into that class. Mind you depending on the judge, it's a 95 point car with some patina. Drove it to the Lex convention, did the 1400 mile pre-tour and entered it in the concourse for grins. But three fairly fresh literal trailer queens took 1,2,3. No such thing as preservation in AROC. But the car is a clear go-by for restorations and I will keep it like that as much as possible, yes, including Dunlop brakes and points. And drive the heck out of it.

My benchmark for what NOT to do is rows of US rods at shows with nearly everything chromed and new.

Pic: example of over the top restoration. I'm 2nd owner, since 1975, of my highly original 69 spider and the door pulls never looked like this. And the SS bumpers did not either. More is not better. Nor was there any chrmomated (gold) zinc plated hardware.
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post #10 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 04:07 PM
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.... and entered it in the concourse for grins. But three fairly fresh literal trailer queens took 1,2,3. No such thing as preservation in AROC.
When restored and preserved cars are lumped into the same class, the preserved cars are always going to suffer. Judge are expected to be objective, and the only way to do that is to award the most points to cars that look like they did when they left the factory. Once judges start trading off interesting patina (is that really Fangio's greasy thumbprint on the upholstery?) for factory originality, a concours degenerates into a popularity contest.

Now if there is a separate class for preserved cars, then those judges can attempt to trade off "half the paint is original" against "beautifully cracked leather". That still gets pretty subjective.

Clearly over-restored cars should lose points too. Again, the criteria is "look like the day it left the factory", so that Nardi steering wheel on a Giulia normale will cost the entrant points. And yes, I have had entrants try to convince me that their kustomizing touches are actually "safety features".
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'63 Guilia spider
'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
'91 164L

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post #11 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 04:29 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alfajay View Post
Clearly over-restored cars should lose points too. Again, the criteria is "look like the day it left the factory", so that Nardi steering wheel on a Giulia normale will cost the entrant points. And yes, I have had entrants try to convince me that their kustomizing touches are actually "safety features".
That is the point, but now who knows what they looked like when so many have been over-restored. Points REALLY should be deducted for over-the-top unoriginal restoration including coatings and state of polish, rahter than the ohh ahhh trance judges are in.
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post #12 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 04:44 PM
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Points REALLY should be deducted for over-the-top unoriginal restoration including coatings and state of polish, rahter than the ohh ahhh trance judges are in.
Well don't get mad - get even! Volunteer as a concours judge, and do things right.
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'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
'91 164L

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post #13 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2017, 05:13 PM Thread Starter
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First and last try. It seems like a club. The fat girl fell (ice skating) but it was her turn. Just not my cuppa. Driving is. Concourse is only a small part of the car world. After hitting the MM 2x, Alfa and Sclmumpf Museum, I have a better feel for original state with patina. But again, those are rare cars, not S3 spiders.

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post #14 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-20-2017, 02:49 AM
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Judging aside,( I have served the club at many AROC conventions over the decades, virtually every one I've attended from coast to coast,) there has been some recognition given to cars with patina. At the Rhode Island Convention a few years ago, there were two distinct categories for judging.. Show and Shine and those vying for the coveted Certificate of Gold (Certificato D'oro) which is awarded cars with over 96 points I think. There is an attempt to bring recognition to cars with originality through this method. There was no distinction in trophies from one group versus the other and winners were equally proud.

Correct judging does deduct from cars that are over-restored and I've done it many times to the consternation of the owner. It can get subjective and testy, but I fear not the ire. The facts are black and white and speak in volumes. I have yet to have an owner hold a grudge. Some judges might not want to enter the ring of fire. Anyone who knows me by now knows I'm pretty resolute.

Bear in mind, most judges have no experience. They are rounded up at the last minute and given a pep talk on what to look at. Usually each group has a veteran to lead his team. It's a very imperfect system but it does get the job done when rankings are tallyed. The hard scores might be hard to swallow or conversely generous but in the end the top three cars always are ranked properly.

Concors shows are shows in themselves. They have little to do with the subject of preservation or originality other than correctness is part of the criteria. The biggest deductions are a result of untidyness and poor preparation. , Very few owners have even had an opportunity to show. There are plenty of cars without ribbons that deserve their day in the sun and Concors awards seem to have been a discounted pedigree when cars are sold, probably for all the above reasons. Wide-spread inconsistencies and size of the field can have an effect.

My attitude has always been, if you want to over-restore a car.. go for it... It might win trophies.. It might excel in value on the market...but don't turn your nose up to a car preserved and immaculately cared for as being inferior. The worm has turned.
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post #15 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-20-2017, 04:58 AM
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My friends tease me about my trailer queen. I can assure you, it's no trailer queen. I wanted to do a restoration to restore the car to "like new" condition. The paint is single stage and none of the stainless was polished to mirror perfection. The bright work I had restored and plated is done to a high standard, but I don't know how to tell someone to do a crapy restoration on the bright work.
@Anfanuts, keep the patina on your spider. If you paint the car, then you'll notice the chrome isn't quite shiny enough. Then, you'll see that the bumpers aren't shiny enough. Then, you'll want to install new lenses......
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