105 series (sill/rocker) chassis components in DETAIL - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-26-2006, 06:44 PM Thread Starter
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105 series (sill/rocker) chassis components in DETAIL

Guys,

A few people have asked 'how and what do all the panels look like in the sill/rocker area on my GT/GTV?', etc. and thus I thought I would start this thread.

I will do detailed sketches (not dimensioned drawings) of these panels to hopefully clearly show how it all fits together. I might also use photos of my car to help explain.

It is hard to work out as in most cases the cars are so rusty, or have had bad repairs done, that how it is supposed to be is lost.

To start with, here is a good sketch from http://www.alfa-service.eu:

1. This is the outer (visibile) sill/rocker panel. Note how it goes right around the A pillar and closes in the front of the chassis rail. To be honest I also thought that it went right around the B pillar and back to the rear wheel inner arch, but this sketch does not show that ... I thus might be wrong here ... or their replacement part is not 100% as original.

2. Middle chassis piece. This goes from the inner rear wheel arch up to the front of the A piller. It does not reach the firewall.

3. Inner chassis rail. This runs from the firewall back to the inner rear wheel arch and the top face is tapered at each end from the pillars back.

4. Not sure what to call this panel, but it closes in the the A pillar to firewall gap and goes right up to the 'scuttle' under the front windscreen. I assume it is shown shorter as it is a replacement part. At the bottom it attaches to panel 3. It has the A pillar on one side and 3 on the other.

5. Front jacking point.

6. Rear jacking point.

The other panels are the floor pans. Originally there are only left and right ones ... not 4 as they are supposed to be full length panels.

Pete
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Last edited by PSk; 04-26-2006 at 08:48 PM.
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post #2 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-26-2006, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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View of panel 1 (see post above):



Note how it wraps around the A pillar. You can also see panel 4 between 1 and the A pillar.

Pete

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post #3 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-26-2006, 07:13 PM Thread Starter
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Alfaholics replacement sill/rocker. Note how it is indeed full length and will reach right back to the inner rear arch and thus wraps around the B pillar:


Photo from http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/show...46&postcount=1

Pete

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post #4 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-26-2006, 07:22 PM Thread Starter
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Cross section of sill/rocker between door pillars


Photo from http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/show...5&postcount=28

Note this is only approximately accurate between the door pillars as panel 3's top face tapers from B pillar to inner rear arch, and likewise from A piller to firewall (see photo below). Panel 2's upper flange is not straight to match this. Also panel 2 and 3's top face is inline, I believe it is shown not inline for clarity ... artist license sort of thing .

Top of panel 3 from A pillar to firewall (before):


After:

Note that I have made the 'top' bend too sharp compared to the original 'panel 3'. The place that pressed these members from my drawings was not able to make the correct bend. This will be hidden by carpet and trim anyway.

Pete

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post #5 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-26-2006, 07:30 PM Thread Starter
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B pillar and panel 2.

Useful picture of the B pillar and it just shows how panel 2 tapers to the inner rear wheel arch:



Pete

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post #6 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-27-2006, 04:50 AM
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Wow! Great stuff, Pete!

Jim

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post #7 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-27-2006, 06:52 AM
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Great thread Pete
I love working in this area of these cars. (yeh, I am nuts) so I thought I'd add a few pics of a project I'm working on at the moment.
I'll be making all the inner sections myself and finish off with Highwood supplied sills, floors and guard bottoms.
Here's a pic of a front section of inner sill being cut from flat sheet via a paper template I have been using for about 10yrs. It is only the lower half of the sill (as can be seen in the 2nd pic of it welded in place). All that was required in this case.
I have paper and cardboard templates of all the inner pieces that I've collected over the years, all made from good original parts
The 3rd and 4th pic show the middle sill which ends short of the inner sill and is then filled by the panel #4 from the parts diagram.
That's all I've done so far....
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post #8 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-27-2006, 07:11 AM
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Thanks, great job guys.

I wondered what those look like. Where do you live Blue Flame, I'll come right over with my duetto. PSK, did you realize the pedals are supposed to be on the other side?

Wes
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post #9 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-27-2006, 03:55 PM Thread Starter
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The more pictures the better ...

Excellent pictures BlueFlame. The more correct information we can add about this area will make future restorations for others so much easier.

I remember my father and I standing looking at the web of rust and scratching our heads and trying to work out how it all went ... for weeks. I remember visiting mates cars and making cardboard templates, etc. ... and then getting back to my car and confusion returned. I also remember studying the parts manual ... which is actually quite good ... and slowly over time worked it out (mainly thanks to the fact that I bought a floor section from sill to sill off another car for the floor panels. The sills were far better than my car but ofcourse I sacrificed those to get the floor panels ... which I then had to repair, etc. ... but atleast I had something to compare with).

And it is just as well you love doing this area BlueFlame ... as being an Alfa restorer you will get lots of practice


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.G
I wondered what those look like. Where do you live Blue Flame, I'll come right over with my duetto. PSK, did you realize the pedals are supposed to be on the other side?

Wes
Dr.G,

I think the Duetto might have extra panels in the sill/rocker area for strength ... ? I think the inside of the A pillar is boxed in or something.


Pete

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Last edited by PSk; 04-27-2006 at 04:36 PM.
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post #10 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-28-2006, 10:27 PM
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A duetto may have an extra rail in there (can't quite recall at the moment) but it does have, as do all spiders, gussets spaced at intervals between the middle and inner sills and about twice as many spot welds per sq inch as a coupe. A bugger to unpick.
For me, and I've been looking at these cars for some time now, this is where any value one of these cars has lays. They ALL rust, period. They all need to be repaired (unless they've been done of course) and if the repairs to these areas aren't done properly then the shell is of lesser value. Exceptions granted to race cars, special purpose ect.
The thing is they aren't easy to get right and are expensive to do. I usually do about 40-50hrs a side in metal work in the sill area on an average rusted (Australian) car.
You could probably do it a lot quicker but I like don't like to leave ugly footprints behind me, so I duplicate all the original internal shapes and replicate the original welds. I gas butt-weld and file and planish all my panel joins on the outer skin and the floors ect. I just hate doing it any other way.

Dr G, may be cheaper to get me to your car than get your car to me, 'cause I'm near Sydney, Australia.
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post #11 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-29-2006, 03:02 AM Thread Starter
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More photos ...

... Just to scare you all, actually to make you think twice about what you are about to buy and get yourself into. Remember my car was legal to drive in New Zealand and I actually drove it for about 6 or so months before I started the restoration, BUT there really was bugger all steel left in the sills.

The next 2 photos are the A pillar area, and hopefully shows 'panel 4' well.

The last (in this post) is the old and the new inner chassis member (panel 3) ... made by me with a little help from a press shop for the main shape

Pete
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post #12 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-29-2006, 03:04 AM Thread Starter
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Now the B pillar ...

Details of the B pillar base and how the 'panel 1' runs right back to the inner rear wheel arch.

Please note everything I have stated and done on my car is to the best of my knowledge how this area of a 105 series GTV should be ... I could have got some areas wrong (?). So if anybody knows different please say so and lets help future restorations get it spot on.

Pete
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post #13 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-29-2006, 07:16 AM
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Rust out question for the learned gents

So the cars you bought with the rust in the photo had never been exposed to salt? What about your humidity situation?

Wes
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post #14 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-29-2006, 02:51 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.G
So the cars you bought with the rust in the photo had never been exposed to salt? What about your humidity situation?

Wes
By salt you mean salt on the roads due to snow ... then no never had that issue. I would have thought Alfa Romeo's (of this period) would have been lucky to last a single year in snow .

My car though was a North Island of New Zealand car and thus it rusted. Plenty of coast and some humidity. The best Alfas in New Zealand come from the South Island, say from Christchurch. I've seen unrestored Christchurch cars that are simply immaculate!!

Pete

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post #15 of 65 (permalink) Old 04-29-2006, 07:44 PM
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Your opinions please

I got put off from the shop one to two more weeks (for a couple of cars worth 20 times as much as mine, oh well, I'm at least tolerated) and hopefully we can then begin sheet metal repairs. I received two front pieces from Wolf Steel which are 1/2 front floors. It's great he'll work with you on just what you need at Wolf Steel. $75 each part. I have the lower panels for behind the front wheels and in front of the rear wheels.Also a nose patch panel. I want to do this properly.

Your opinion please, Australian sheet metal experts:

Can the rockers be taken off and then merely replace the middle, rewelding the outer rocker back on? I thought the stronger inner piece from Wolf Steel is a good idea. What do you think south of the equator?

http://alfaparts.net/105_115sill.htm

I'm back into metallurgy with Copy Cad from Caswell.

http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/zinc.htm

The rear parking plates have to be vertical or only the edges will get plated. I had to buy the 4.5 gallon kit.

I'm picking up a free powder coating oven tonight. I will probably two part epoxy my axles and powder coat the rest. Axles won't fit in my free oven. I am told temp. is critical so I'll need to buy a thermostat to avoid trusting the oven's.

Last edited by Dr.G; 04-29-2006 at 07:47 PM.
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