Body Filler and Lead: One Man's Opinions - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #31 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-20-2008, 11:04 PM
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I've asked Daron to add his comments to this thread. Hopefully he will .

180OUT, I used to do what your friend did (was even taught so by my brother inlaw) ... and one night I was having a beer with a mate (who I used to race against) and he owns one of the top panel shops in New Zealand and is Rolls Royce approved, etc. and he said:

"The most common mistake amatures make is not sealing the metal before filler and paint, the steel then sweats and before long they get rust again ... in the same places they just fixed"

Now he might have been drunk , but I've also watched Daron's threads and he makes a big deal about sealing bare metal ... leaving cars for as long as possible to let the sealer sink right in.
Pete
ps: Remember really old school guys were taught leading, and that is a bare metal process ... then filler came out and I believe many incorrectly applied it like it was lead .... It's not, it really should be thought about as another layer of paint.

'71 1750 Series 2 GTV:
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Last edited by PSk; 05-20-2008 at 11:07 PM.
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post #32 of 50 (permalink) Old 05-21-2008, 09:23 AM
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Tony understood the same processes, Pete, I just think he had a different technique. I suppose, also, there is the question of what is meant by "sealer" and that's something Daron will, perhaps, enlighten us about. Tony was definitely old school, quite orthodox---curmudgeonly so. He'd started painting cars when people used long brushes instead of spray guns.

Tony spent a lot of time on prep work. His view was that good paint was only as good as the surface prepretation: the magic happened because of what was underneath the paint surface. He was scurpulous about not letting paint surfaces sit uncovered (primer is easy to sand). But the filler went on to bare metal. I think the reason he did this was to insure that the subsequent primer would be as thin as possible. His preferred method was to then let the primer sit for awhile (a few weeks, if possible) to allow the solvents to evoperate. His was not a production shop. His work was expensive and cars stayed in his shop for a long time.

Of course much has changed since then. There are new techniques and materials which are designed to reduce the hand labor involved in getting good paint. This is one reason I'm enjoying this thread. I'm going to do the surface prep, but not the paint itself, on my GTV. I think it'll be fun to apply Tony's lessons, but I'm certainly not opposed to using newer, etter techniques. Hopefully, that technology will allow a duffer like me to get a good result.

Jim . . . '72 Super 1300, '70, 1750GTV, 2nd series,
'62, Lancia Flaminia Zagato3c, 2nd series

Last edited by 180OUT; 05-21-2008 at 09:32 AM.
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post #33 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-03-2008, 06:56 PM
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Hi gang. Here's the winning steps.

If you have the car in bare steel, epoxy prime ASAP. Body work over that. Then primer/surfacer. Next would be Sealer and color. That last step is a same day process. Sealer has a short recoat window. So, don't seal if you are not going to color.

As for etch prime, this is a process if while doing the body work, you cut through to bare steel. Use a little etch, prior to primer/surfacer. Most primer surfacers don't very good hold out (metal protection). I hope this helps.

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post #34 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-03-2008, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akitaman View Post
Hi gang. Here's the winning steps.

If you have the car in bare steel, epoxy prime ASAP. Body work over that.
Cool, thus bog on top of epoxy primer.

Thanks Daron, nothing worse than rust reappearing where you just fixed it!
Pete

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post #35 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-21-2009, 01:15 AM
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i too am in the restoration game, we use lea for areas such as weld joints where the area is well supported ie door shuts, taillamps ect , and plastic else where.

it just depends on the situation at hand.
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post #36 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-16-2009, 01:55 AM
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Cna you define the term "block out" for me? Also, it seems to me the term etching implies an acid based bath or "picling" agent to destroy any oxidised particles? Like using flux in soldering or brazing?
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post #37 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-16-2009, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
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Also, it seems to me the term etching implies an acid based bath or "picling" agent to destroy any oxidised particles? Like using flux in soldering or brazing?
Lifted from Vantaaj's other sticky on paints http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/167187-post1.html:



Etching or Direct to Metal
Some paints are direct to metal, some are not and require a primer. DTM paints have a small amount of acid in them to etch the metal they are applied to form a chemical bond to the underlying metal. Make sure you know which you have. If you spray a non DTM paint directly on metal, it will flake off, and conversely some DTM paints will blister most primers. Self etching and DTM are the same thing.


A lot of great information on this board. Just not enough hours in the day to read it all.

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post #38 of 50 (permalink) Old 07-03-2011, 06:04 AM
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Eastwood Lead-Free Body Solder?

Has anyone here used the Eastwood lead-free body solder? They claim it has all the benefits of using lead, but is easier to work with and isn't as toxic.

Regards,
Lawrence
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post #39 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-22-2012, 02:02 PM
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Body work

Coming from the marine composites industry, i have a little different experience on the use of some products, and would like to add two cents in, that i think most amateurs will find invaluable.

If you are not in a position to weld a hole or imperfection, or pay to have something welded, clean down to bare metal with 36 grit, brush on unthickened west system epoxy (two part, 5:1 mix ratio) and then "sand in" the wet epoxy to the metal surface with a clean metal brush, then thicken some unthickened epoxy with colloidal silica until it reaches a peanut butter consistency, and apply to the panel, making it a little "proud". Once cured, scrub off the amine blush that occurs on the surface with a watered scotch brite red pad. Once dry, sand with 36 grit, and you can fill or paint with any polyester products (duratec, evercoat, rage gold, upol...) and they will adhere. The thing is, only west system epoxy will "accept" polyester products, whereas, no other epoxy distributor will. They have a really good formulation. The rust will not come back if you clean it down to bare metal and do what i tell you. Over twenty years of working with this stuff. The primary reasons you don't see body shops use this, i think, is because epoxy will not cure nearly as quickly as the 30 minutes polyester, and vinylester products, and epoxy, especially west system epoxy, costs 3 times the amount. But still, this is a lot cheaper than paying someone to weld a little hole. I can rust proof any piece of metal you have. If anybody on here needs something rust proofed, send it to me. I won't charge you a dime, unless it is huge. I try to help out fellow car guys if i can. Thanks
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post #40 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-22-2012, 04:33 PM
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Interesting post. I think what you're talking is something that is considerably in advance of the usual low rent chicken-wire and bondo type of repairs.

Are there places on old Alfas where modern composites/adhesives/chemicals can work as well as traditional metal replacement i.e., welding? Could you fix, say, rockers and rust around windshields?

Jim . . . '72 Super 1300, '70, 1750GTV, 2nd series,
'62, Lancia Flaminia Zagato3c, 2nd series
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post #41 of 50 (permalink) Old 06-23-2012, 04:46 AM
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yes, you can fix with epoxy. see, epoxy does not shrink like polyester, and it is an adhesive, whereas, polyester is not a very good adhesive. also, epoxy is amazingly strong, compared to a talc filled polyester, and does not absorb water like a talc based polyester. the reason boats that stay in the water eventually blister on the bottom is due to the migration of water into and through the polyester. epoxy does not do this, or rather, takes an extremely long time to allow this. i am happy to explain how to do this, but it is not rocket science. once you fix a few things around the house with it, you won't know how you survived without it. using epoxy with the correct fiberglass fabric that is strong, light, and easily conformable, will, literally, revolutionize your rapairs in many instances. areas that rust a lot (spare tire buckets in the trunk), i thought of simply molding a new bucket out of fiberglass with the identical dimensions of the original, and then it can be installed by a backyard bodyman by using the correct adhesive. no welding, and no rusting, ever again. the problem is, a lot purists want metal only, but, if you drive the car a lot, i see it as much more practical.
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post #42 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-01-2013, 04:38 AM
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I have a question that hasn't been covered in this excellent thread. My S4 has a galvanized body. What's the proper procedure for bodywork over galvanized? I'm talking about repairing small dings ect. that can't be reached from the backside. I plan to eventually paint my whole car but would prefer to not take it all down to bare metal. I've been spraying lacquer for nearly 50 years on furniture and cabinets but have never done a car.

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post #43 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-01-2013, 05:45 AM
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That raises another question. Are you certain the sheet metal on your S4 is galvanized? If this were the case, I think it would be a much bigger issue from a welding/sheet metal repair stand point than from a dent repair stand point. My understanding is the fumes produced from welding galvanized metal will make you sick if you breathe them.

Regarding dent repair, I defer to the experts for details but there are a lot of options. With the right tools, you can get to the back side of most of the body panels on a Spider. My personal goal is to avoid using any more than 1/8 of an inch of filler on a repair.

Rich Hanning
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post #44 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-01-2013, 05:50 AM
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I'm saying that it's galvanized only because I read it in an Alfa book that I have and have seen it mentioned on a few threads in the Spider forum. Other than that, I'm not sure.

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post #45 of 50 (permalink) Old 03-01-2013, 06:15 AM
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Well, I am not positive either but I doubt galvanizing was used. You asked a good question and I look forward to other responses. I have similar ding/dent issues on the '88 Spider.

Rich Hanning
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