Willow Springs 2/23-24/2019 Videos - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-27-2019, 10:11 AM Thread Starter
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Willow Springs 2/23-24/2019 Videos

Here are a couple of videos that Steve made from his BMW.
I'll post my video when I am finished editing it.
Other folks with videos to share may post to this thread.
Blessings.
Roy.

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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-27-2019, 02:52 PM
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A problem with odd numbers ?

OK, quiz time.
I could comment on turns 1,3,5 and 9, but I want input from others.
Steve, you should never have passed Roy. When you were behind him you tended to follow his, the correct, line. But after you blew past him you went back to your old habits. You have been to School twice, I would think the word "early" is relevant especially around 8:25.

It was a typically great AROSC event. Lots of good competition, a good Alfa showing, the V8 Road Racing vehicles, a Rolex 24 driver doing hot Ferrari laps and a Ginetta G55 doing some shake down laps in Race Group, on the way to COTA for the Pirelli Challenge this weekend. The Ginetta just came off the boat from England 2 weeks ago! Oh, of course, probably the World Fastest Stock Cadillac, Red, in the world!!

Oh, Steve, your first video shot from up in the tower were pretty good. But after MY white Milano went out of frame at the beginning I sort of stopped watching

Paul Blankenship AROSC
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-27-2019, 11:08 PM Thread Starter
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Roy's video

My top speed was 135.9 MPH and my best lap time was 1:38.77
Enjoy.
Blessings.
Roy.


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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-28-2019, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewaysalfa View Post
OK, quiz time.
I could comment on turns 1,3,5 and 9, but I want input from others.
Steve, you should never have passed Roy. When you were behind him you tended to follow his, the correct, line. But after you blew past him you went back to your old habits. You have been to School twice, I would think the word "early" is relevant especially around 8:25.

It was a typically great AROSC event. Lots of good competition, a good Alfa showing, the V8 Road Racing vehicles, a Rolex 24 driver doing hot Ferrari laps and a Ginetta G55 doing some shake down laps in Race Group, on the way to COTA for the Pirelli Challenge this weekend. The Ginetta just came off the boat from England 2 weeks ago! Oh, of course, probably the World Fastest Stock Cadillac, Red, in the world!!

Oh, Steve, your first video shot from up in the tower were pretty good. But after MY white Milano went out of frame at the beginning I sort of stopped watching
I don't know who was driving the white car that the video camera was in, and I normally don't kibitz on driving style/habits/skill, but...
My observation is that the car speed is slowing during and after turn apex. Having been there, done that myself, this means entry speed is to fast. Slow down the turn entry speed just a bit, then you'll be able to ramp it up near turn apex and accelerate during turn exit.

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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-28-2019, 09:52 AM
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"Roy's Video" -Roy's line thru corners are always good. Slow and wide in, tight and accelerating out.

Steve, I'm not Just picking just on you . I had several ride alongs, all drivers who had been at School last year. All of you drove about the same lines. Fast and early in, trying to recover from your early apex as you exited the turn. Heck that patch of dirt at the end of turn 5 was from one of my ride alongs Saturday before lunch. Totally entered 5 EARLY, rotated the car as he panic braked at the bottom of that hill and spun into the inside where the dirt and part of his spoiler ended up.
You drivers in TT2, the fast group, miss out on my "excellent" classroom sessions I run usually during TT2 because we "assume" TT1 drivers could use more instruction. Gotta think about out scheduling and also maybe making these classroom deals mandatory in order to get a Competition License. Hmmmmmmm
Remember I am the AROSC License Guy.

Paul Blankenship AROSC
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-01-2019, 02:11 PM
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RacerZ and Paul,

I appreciate all the tips on my driving. I try to use my videos to see how I can improve. This was my second track day at Big Willow and I'm still trying to workout the land marks especially on turn 9. I got into the marbles wide that scared me into taking a line closer to the middle. I probably was going too fast into the turn like you've pointed out. Any more tips you guys may have are always welcome.
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-01-2019, 02:39 PM
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Paul,

Roy is a good driver and I continue to ask him about how to get through sections of the track that I have trouble with. He managed a 1:36.9 in his C5 Corvette less than a second off of the C5 Z06 listed on FastestLaps.com. Apparently I'm plagued with the same habits as many new drivers. I'm a 60 year old newbie but I plan to improve my abilities for safety and speed. Thanks for watching the video, you're observations are always welcome.

Steve
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-03-2019, 09:43 AM
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RacerZ and Paul,

I appreciate all the tips on my driving. I try to use my videos to see how I can improve. This was my second track day at Big Willow and I'm still trying to workout the land marks especially on turn 9. I got into the marbles wide that scared me into taking a line closer to the middle. I probably was going too fast into the turn like you've pointed out. Any more tips you guys may have are always welcome.

I have an in-car video camera as well. It's a wonderful tool. I get to review (and relive) my run sessions and see where I can make improvements.
- Am I to far away from the track edge at turn-in?
- Am I to far away from the track edge at the apex?
- Am I to far away from the track edge at turn-out?

If I can answer YES to any of the above, that means I could probably have been going faster. But, not until I can consistently get turn-in and apex better. Turn out will take care of itself as the car speed raises and drifts out.

I should point out that 'drifting' on a road course is not the same as the more popular style of drifting where the ***-end is hanging out. ***-end hanging out is NOT the fastest way around a track. 'Drifting' in road racing terms can be two wheel drift or four wheel drift, and that is when one or both axles start to loose traction. When well controlled and kept on that edge, the car is gently sliding towards the outside edge of the track. In driving school we are run through throttle-steering practice so that we can manage the car during these high speed drifts. When done well, it's hard to tell that the car is drifting, it looks and feels natural, in-control.

If the car isn't drifting, this means there's more speed to be found. If you're spinning out or plowing fields, you're carrying to much speed. The racer's edge of traction is a fine line that simply takes experience and practice to find. And even more of the above to do consistently. I'm probably still trying to find the consistency, but my lap times are improving and it's been a while since I've used my car as a tractor.

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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-03-2019, 07:32 PM
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RacerZ,

A ton of great insight there. Those are great questions to ask one's self when reviewing track videos. After many laps I finally began to feel relaxed enough to try some of that throttle steering in turn 2. That turn also gave me an idea of how the car was handling.

The BMW seemed wonderfully neutral and with a little throttle all four wheels would drift and with a little more the back end would drift out a bit more. It's definitely not the car holding my time down.

Maybe I'll see you at Buttonwillow. Hopefully you'll see me driving a car not a tractor! Haha!
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-03-2019, 11:16 PM
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How I understand a turn

Here is what I cover in class and what I attempt to do on the track. A couple of things to remember: "LATE APEX"; and: I look at a turn "backward". That means first I find a turn's fastest exit line, then I look backwards to see where I need to place my car so that I can follow that exit line. Getting on that exit line is IMPORTANT. It is where you are accelerating so you need to do whatever is necessary to get on it. Which means I may sacrifice a little speed earlier to get a lot more speed, longer, later.
Some vocabulary: Straighterish not straight yet but unwinding the steering wheel. You want to exit a turn going Straighterish. How do you make your exit line so that you can accelerate earlier while going Straighterish?
Here is a pic I got on-line with a few minor changes. The line on this pic is close to what I use and have taught for a long while.
Lets talk turn 5 because it is important for good lap times and is representative of other turns at other tracks.
? Where is the longest straight at Willow Springs ? - turn 6 up to 9. So doing 6 is important since a few MPH at 6 carries on thru 8 into 9. But to do 6 fast you need to do 5 in a way so you maximize 6. But to do 5 good you need to nail 4 which means you can't blow 3. WHEW, this is complicated.

Turn 3 - it needs an exit line so that you are Straighterish heading up hill, not trying to recover from an early apex which throws you wayyy out to the right into the dirt before you really start up that hill.
Turn 4 - get your self pointed down hill and so that you will make a late apex, heading left into 5.
Turn 5 - Set up so that you are pointed down hill STRAIGHT at the bottom so that you can brake in a straight line. Many hug the inside right of 5 which points you to an early apex of 5 at the bottom which tosses you out to the right, you hit the brakes as you attempt to turn left usualy causing you to spin back to the left off the track. Gee this sounds a little like 3.
Turn 6 - I want to be pointed so that as I rise over the turn 6 hill I am Straignterish over the top of the hill. With fast cars, GT3 Porsche, big V-8, etc, this is mandatory otherwise you could exit the track on the left after 6.
But I am not finished with 5. 5 needs to be completed so that you are mostly on the left heading up the hill. Now I can apex 6 LATE, almost at the end of the berm at the top of the hill, which points me Straighterish. Oh, this also allows me to accelerate as I head up the turn 6 hill carrying that acceleration thru 8 into 9. In most of the cars I drive I also do a quick up shift from 3rd to 4th as I head up this hill. It may be a little early but shifting at the top of the hill of as I head back down the hill seems a bad place, for me. Think of what this does to my 4 contact patches as I crest the hill.

Use this reasoning as you look at every turn at every track. Buttonwillow (clockwise) Phill Hill has the same reasoning as Turn 6 at Willow. You MUST cross Phil Hill so that you are pointed not Straighterish but STRAIGHT as you drive over the top of that hill. So how do you set your self up to hit that very important exit line??? Where in the combination of turns before Phil Hill do you need to be??
There, this is just about everything I have figured out, what works for me, after teaching our HP Driving School for wayyy tooo many years. Oh, I did not mention that "magic asphalt" that is at the apex of every turn and how to find it. You all will just have come to our next School in September and ask Steve Hamilton about that deal.
See you at the track.
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-03-2019, 11:23 PM
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Drifting/tire squeel is bad.

I will echo what Bob/Racer Z said above. Fast laps are those where you are just about to loose traction. 4 wheels with no traction is cool for TV commercials and Top Gear/Grand Tour but your lap times will suck. Think of what you did on the skid pad at School. You had better car control when the tires were not sliding.
Hope to see you all at Buttonwillow.

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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 10:14 AM
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Paul,

Terrific analysis. I didn't think of the section between 6 and 9 as the longest straight before. I also now see the importance of getting my landmarks down for a late apex turn 4. Turn 4 and 9 are the toughest for me as I can't see the end of the exit line until it's too late. I'm still working on landmarks for those corners that aren't cones.

I can see that what you wrote is really going to help me get a faster time on the track. Thanks a bunch for taking the time to write this down, I completely understand what you're saying. There's still a wide chasm between understanding and application for me.

See you soon,

Steve
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 11:26 AM
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Big Willow, turns 6 to 8 vs turns 5 to 9... This depends mostly on the car you're driving.

In my 240z, which is light and under powered, I can full throttle it in high gear from 5 to 9. Somewhere after the apex of five, when I'm going straighterish, I'm full throttle. I can clip the apex of six (full throttle). I can full throttle through eight until I need to slow for nine. I don't need to brake for nine, anymore. Improved driving skills? or I changed my threshold of fear?

I've driven other cars on Big Willow, faster cars and/or heavier cars. There's enough rise in six to unweight some cars. This means slowing down and/or taking a wider line and not clipping the apex of six. The outside line has less rise.

These cars with more motor can build up enough speed to force me to slow for eight. Not so sure I want to eat dirt while doing 120+ mph.

So, yes, it's one long straight from 6-8 or 5-9 depending on the car and/or the skill set. Seven doesn't count as a turn. Until Paul told me turn seven existed, I wasn't even aware that I was actually going straighterish in a perfectly straight line.

Turn five deserves a discussion unto itself. It's off camber and decreasing radius. Setup and late turn-in are crucial. Being smooth and having a later apex is important. Entering five to hot and trying to slow down (during the turn) will upset the car, this is a throttle control turn. I get ALL my braking done before I start my turn-in and while at track-edge. Some double apex here, I tend to do a single and very late apex. I'm at part throttle through the turn for the purpose of suspension balance. After I apex, I start rolling on the fuel and am at full throttle while going straighterish. This means I've started my full throttle straight line before exiting turn five.

I think it's only fair to say that I've gotten out of shape in turn five more than all the other turns combined.

Turn nine, the end of the long back straight (and the beginning of the front straight)... Some brake for nine, others just lift the throttle. Throttle steer and later apex are key. I can slow by lifting the throttle, gently, during the long turn-in [but yes, I slow before turn-in]. Hug that outside edge until turning in for the apex. It's a later apex than what we're used to doing around town. Roll on the fuel after the apex and full throttle while going straighterish.

Depending on the specific turn and how I feel, I can full throttle just before the apex. Perhaps my motor is simply that dead. Perhaps experience has change my skill level. In thinking about my before and after driving styles, this is not how I drove when I was first starting out.

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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 10:36 PM
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Bob,

Good stuff. I didn't realized that there is less of a drop off when you take turn 6 wide. My car does exactly like you mentioned going over the hump. I'm plan to try a wider line next time to see if I can stay on the throttle. I noticed the same things you mentioned about turn 5. I'm looking forward to the next time at Big Willow I feel better prepared!
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