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post #61 of 69 (permalink) Old 10-09-2004, 02:48 AM
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G'Day Mats,

That would be Alfa document PA371400000000 ?

Yeah, about 1200 pages of updates

Most of the "manuals" I have are actually the updates that a local mechanic didn't bother putting into his manuals.

I'm only missing pages from groups 00 01 04 and 05. Unfortunately for me it's mostly the four cylinder info.

If you can help out I might be able to arrange for someone in Sweden to scan or photocopy for you.


I will post some info about which pages I'm missing on my site.

Edit: I forgot I already had http://www.users.on.net/~craigf/other/missing.htm

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Last edited by Craig; 10-09-2004 at 03:02 AM.
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post #62 of 69 (permalink) Old 10-09-2004, 05:07 AM
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Well, it's the complete manuals Vol I and II Gr. 00, 01, 04, 05, 07, 12, 13, 15, 17, 21, 22, 23 and 25.

If there is some specific info you need I can share but these puppies will not be outside my complete control (i.e. left to some photcopy company or similar).

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post #63 of 69 (permalink) Old 10-17-2004, 04:49 AM
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Hmmm... Just don't seem right looking at the data. Is the 911s a 6-cyl/Turbo? Hard to believe a '73 911s makes 33 more HP at the wheels than the Calloway Twin-T. Could it be due to emmissions De-Tuning on the later car?

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post #64 of 69 (permalink) Old 10-19-2004, 09:19 AM
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OK... Something is definitely wrong with those dyno numbers... Maybe you guys didn't strap the cars down to the rollers tightly enough. This quote from the Reeves Calloway inerview on alfacentro.com gives some food for thought:

"HMD: The 2.5 liter put out somewhere around 160 hp.

RC: I recall the engine dynoing out at 130 hp to the flywheel. Also, I remember because once we completed the project we were all quite fired up to know we’d added another 100 hp, to the Alfa’s power output capability. The leap from 130 hp to 230-240 hp, is significant."

So he's quoting 235 HP nominal at the flywheel. That would equate to 183HP with the larger (28%) loss of drivetrain power. Either the cars were not secured properly; or someone is hoping to sell a bunch of Magnaflows!!!

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post #65 of 69 (permalink) Old 10-19-2004, 09:40 AM
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Well, the engine could be way off tune. My car dynoed at 150 wheel bhp (stock 3.0), and another stock GTV6 2.5 had 100 wheel bhp on the same dyno and on the same day. That meant that the GTV6 only had 125 flywheel bhp.

Recently a guy in Canada dynoed his GTV6 at 130 wheel bhp. I've seen a few users report between 130-135 wheel bhp for a GTV6.
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post #66 of 69 (permalink) Old 10-19-2004, 09:50 AM
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Across the board; the 'sales dept. fudge-factor' appears to be about 27% detune. Your own numbers confirm that (re: 130 wheel HP for a GTV6 vs. 100 wheel HP on the Magnaflow Dyno). You can't convince me that the Calloway Twin-T is out of tune that much. Just does not equate; when the car has WOT; the EFI goes into mapped fuel and timing mode. Outside of a potato shoved up the muffler pipe...

The ONLY other reason I can think of is that the car(s) were not up to operating temp. My 164S has a huge detune in it until it is up to temp; when warm it is a completely different car in the HP department. So if the EFI cars were not fully warm; well that could possibly explain for their poor numbers.

I just can't see a car that is a 'benchmark' for aftermarket performance upgrade that was as thoroughly developed/tested dropping that much HP due to lack of a good 'tune-up'. If the car was in that poor basic tune; it would have smoke coming out of the tailpipe and be hard to start. I'm sure that in a 'detuned' state the CTT would give a 164Q or S a serious run for it's money.


JMHO/FWIW...

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Last edited by alfa_corse; 10-19-2004 at 10:38 AM.
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post #67 of 69 (permalink) Old 10-19-2004, 10:23 AM
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A few days ago I wrote that when he had his Alfa/Lotus/race car dyno tuning business Charlie Rockwell used a 28% factor to calculate flywheel horsepower.

Well, he dropped in to to say hello last week, so I asked him face to face. He uses 20-22%.

Hate to admit it, but old age (guilty) and a bad memory (also guilty) makes me even less reliable than before. In my defense, I also found a Lotus posting that mentioned Charlie and the 28%, but maybe that was only for drivers of Lotuses (Loti?).

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post #68 of 69 (permalink) Old 10-19-2004, 10:32 AM
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The loss I'm referring to is in additon to the drivetrain loss already considered. The CTT should test at the wheels at about 200hp with the 22% loss you quote. from 200 to 147 is just too big of a difference IMHO.

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Last edited by alfa_corse; 10-19-2004 at 10:38 AM.
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post #69 of 69 (permalink) Old 10-22-2004, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by alfa_corse
Either the cars were not secured properly; or someone is hoping to sell a bunch of Magnaflows!!!
Well the Giulietta Spider with the Sperry Valve Works 1750 engine has 3 Magnaflow's, and it put out 130 wheel hp.....

Getting back to your comments, I have seen a nitro drag car with 950 hp spin its wheels on a Dynojet single roll; but I don't see the Callaway Alfa doing so.

Drive train losses are affected by many factors, including condition of driveshaft u-joints, rubber couplers, differential and transmission bearings, axle bearings, wheel bearings, brake drag from calipers in need of a rebuild......, I can go on and on. Keep in mind that these are not new cars. So, I don't think we can assign an exact value to drive train hp loss; and in my opinion and experience it can range from 20% to 30%, IN MOST CASES.

Another point here is that turbo cars suffer greatly from heat; this car was driven to the event and allowed to heat soak while parked and waiting to be placed on the dyno. So who knows?

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