What is it with these LA cops?? - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #31 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 10:27 AM
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I submit the following as evidence in support of my case.

1. Photos A,B,C, and D as Officer ***'s point of observation, with supporting statements and descriptions of what each photo represents.

2. A statement with photos E, F, and G, as well as Diagram H, with descriptions that state and describe, what did actually occur.

Pursuant to California Evidence Code Section 607,
Reasonable doubt as to the existence of Officer ***'s presumed facts as proof, pertaining to the violation of CVC ****, does exist.

I believe that a conviction in this case, for the violation of CVC 2***, is not supported by the law and that I am not guilty of violating CVC****, as I was acting in accordance with the law, pursuant to CVC 21462.

I ask that the Court find a ruling in my favor of Not Guilty, and to Dismiss my citation in the interest of justice.

I declare under penalty of perjury that this statement is true and correct.

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post #32 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 10:42 AM
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I saw a vehicles traveling ***bound on ***, coming towards my vehicle.

The close proximity of these vehicles and the rate of speed at which I saw them approaching my vehicle, the condition of my vehicle due to ***, and the knowledge that there was also a vehicle close behind me as well, placed me in a very dangerous situation.

The best course of action at the time, as well as the safest due to the conditions and circumstances, was to immediately and safely remove myself and vehicle from the roadway and traffic to avoid a possible collision, property and monetary damage, potential injury or loss of life to others, as well as myself.

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post #33 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 10:48 AM
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Ok so that may have been more than you or anybody wanted to read, some may think that there are problems with it etc. This may not actually apply to your situation, it was for my situation and I omitted and changed some stuff quickly to try and make it more applicable to you.

This is what I came up with for my situation, and it worked.

Although your citation is for West Hollywood, California and Federal codes and laws still apply.

Also, was the "Red Zone" curbside painted nice and bright or faded and hard to see.

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Last edited by shadowburn; 05-16-2011 at 10:57 AM.
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post #34 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 11:38 AM Thread Starter
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too much!! thanks v much, guys! Man, I didnt know we had a lawyer here too! Thanks, Shad. Lots to study from posts above. Yes. he has at least one pic from the busted muffler. your right, Greg- fleecing the general public. Hey, like a poster said- Cal is desperate for $$$$$$.

Going homne now- will get to finish up my letter for Jr. I will advise asap.......

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post #35 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
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Also, was the "Red Zone" curbside painted nice and bright or faded and hard to see.
another good point. Will text Jr to find out. maybe he could go back to the scene of the crime (perpetrator always goes back, right?), and take more photos.

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post #36 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 04:11 PM
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another good point. Will text Jr to find out. maybe he could go back to the scene of the crime (perpetrator always goes back, right?), and take more photos.
Absolutely check. Also, it may seem tedious, but try to get pictures of the location, where parked (at the beginning or end of the red zone), from different angles from both sides of the street (preferably with as much vehicular traffic and pedestrian traffic to show how dangerous the situation may have been). Other thing is to try and get a copy of the phone bill or a screen shot from the phone company, showing the phone calls (to whom they were made, time, date, and length of the calls).

Use all of this to help strengthen your defense/offense. Discredit the citing officers ability to clearly see/hear what took place, when and how long did he take before he approached the car (since he didn't pull him over. Also, was he on the street or on the sidewalk. Was his view obstructed by other cars parked on the road if he was on the sidewalk and if it was a minute or so after Joe Jr. was parked, could or did he have the ability to hear or see the muffler dragging on the street along with shower of sparks trailing behind the car).

Remember, Joe Jr. is not guilty of violating anything until after and only if, the judge rules that way. Just because an officer cited him for violating something, the officer is not the final word. The officer is only acting as a witness for the city or state. Even if the judge rules he's guilty, if this a normal Trial By Declaration, you still have another chance to appeal the decision by mail and then another chance to appeal in court. One judge may rule guilty, the next may see the case in your favor.

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Last edited by shadowburn; 05-16-2011 at 04:16 PM.
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post #37 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 04:49 PM Thread Starter
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Im gonna try to get Jr to get some time for this- pictures and all. He's soooo busy now, believe it or not. Not saying all this is not worth it, as it definitely is, but hes got to get away from his new job- just started 2 weeks ago. Lets see what happens. Shad, e mail sent.....

We'll lick those renegades.

Thanks!!!!!

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post #38 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-20-2011, 09:10 AM
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First, Joe, it's a waste of time to fight it. How much is his time worth, given that he's 80% to 99% chance of loosing anyway. He'll get a mail notice, which will tell him he can go to traffic school, which avoids the points and insurance record, though you still have to pay the fine as well as the traffic school fee. (If you plead not guilty and try to argue in court, you have to go back another day, and you loose the chance for traffic school and a clear record). BTW - the fine PLUS "local court costs", so a $25 cell phone ticket is about $270. (guess how I know that number).

The out-of state license didn't help.

Second, from what you quoted the cop saying, your son was on the phone while driving. The rest doesn't matter, and there is no defense that will work; his word vs the cop - guess who wins? The cop has no motivation to fib, and Joe Jr. does. There is a big push in every LEO to hit these hard; we've had too many needless deaths, most recently a mother and baby hit (and both killed) by a car while the driver was talking, not far from where Joe Jr was. Since Joe Jr was already flustered with his car problems, the chances that he wouldn't even notice the bodies are great. After all, the cop said he wasn't paying attention to the COP!!!

Safety and traffic flow are the primary focus of all these guys. Your son just feels like it was unfair 'cause he broke his car. HE did OK when the guy didn't call for a patrol car for backup. That is standard procedure because cop shootings at traffic stops happen - even if those are rare.

These are good guys doing a very dangerous job. Everybody here has a "bad cop, bad ticket" story, but I'll bet they leave out a key bit or two. I certainly have.

One thing to add to the "how to get stopped safely" list - if its dark, turn on the inside lights as soon as you notice the flashing lights. It'll tell the cop that you recognize him. You have the right to completely exit the freeway to a safe place, and the cop will like that too - they get clipped by passing cars at a roadside pull-over (that's also why they come up to the passenger side). Just move to the right lane and drive reasonably (not too slowly) to the next exit. The cop will tell you over their very loud PA where it's safe to stop. Open the passenger window if its electrical, turn the engine off, and keep your hands visible.

The state does the surveys; if you are stopped for something, it's likely you've had a few dozen times when you did the same thing and got away with it. They see hundreds of cars per hour, you have to do something that really really attracts their attention.

Robert
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post #39 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-20-2011, 11:22 AM
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The out-of state license didn't help.
No it didn't. Cops like to ticket out of state people. Do you really think this has something to do with safety? I think it's more likely because they know those people don't vote in local elections, and are less likely to fight the ticket.
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Safety and traffic flow are the primary focus of all these guys.
Really? I think the primary focus is revenue generation. They often set up speed traps in locations that will generate the most tickets, not the places that would have the biggest effect on safety.
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Originally Posted by 60sRacer View Post

These are good guys doing a very dangerous job.
That doesn't give the an excuse to treat people like crap, and anyway they barely even reach the top ten of most dangerous jobs: The 15 Most Dangerous Jobs In America . Do the people in other lines of work act like jerks and use that excuse?

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The state does the surveys; if you are stopped for something, it's likely you've had a few dozen times when you did the same thing and got away with it.

Robert
Innocent until proven guilty!

Greg
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post #40 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-20-2011, 11:24 AM
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For the record, I haven't received a ticket in years, however when someone was trying to break into my house at night a few months ago it took the cops 45 minuets to get here. Yet everyday, I see cars pulled over within 5 minuets of my home, they have plenty of time for that.

Greg

Last edited by Greg Gordon; 05-20-2011 at 11:30 AM.
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post #41 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-20-2011, 01:28 PM
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No it didn't. Cops like to ticket out of state people. Do you really think this has something to do with safety? I think it's more likely because they know those people don't vote in local elections, and are less likely to fight the ticket.
He got a ticket for calling while driving. With compliance dropping again even though we've had some fatalities, the state and major agencies are pressing enforcement to get the driver's attention, with NO warnings permitted. He didn't get ticketed for any of the other things he was complaining about. It sounded to me to just be whining. The cop actually let him off when he could have ticketed him for several things, and just tagged him for an issue that is a zero-tollerance one.

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Originally Posted by Greg Gordon View Post
Really? I think the primary focus is revenue generation. They often set up speed traps in locations that will generate the most tickets, not the places that would have the biggest effect on safety.
That may be true is some rural areas or other states. But in my part of LA, it's always because a section of road has traffic moving too far over the speed limit, and some accidents have occurred that draw their attention. It's not uncommon for a 5 lane boulevard to have traffic at 60 mph if there aren't many stoplights, and eventually some pedestrians in the crosswalks get hurt, or collisions at the cross streets happen. Then the enforcement group is out slowing down traffic. In the heavy traffic of So Cal, a cop could pass out all the tickets he wants - there are enough cars and enough infractions to keep him fully busy, so revenue really isn't an issue. But they usually don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Gordon;1010088That doesn't give the an excuse to treat people like crap, and anyway they barely even reach the top ten of most dangerous jobs: [url=http://www.businessinsider.com/the-15-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america-2010-3?op=1
The 15 Most Dangerous Jobs In America[/url] . Do the people in other lines of work act like jerks and use that excuse?
I have exactly zero experience with cops that do this in 60+ years and way too many stops. Nor have any of my friends or family. Maybe somewhere once upon a time, but it's as likely to be urban legend as it is to be true. You seem to have a bias. The data presented - second hand - by Joe Sr - doesn't support that conclusion in the case at hand.

Cell phone use while driving is nearly a zero tolerance issue here, with three fatal incidents in the last several months. That's what he got. The cop could have tagged him for other things, but DIDN'T.

Also, your stats are misleading. Cops are #12, and it's the highest risk PUBLIC SERVICE job. All the higher ranked ones are commercial, and involve large group accidents (which skews the statistics for an individual's risk). Firefighters are next. Even military soldiers are at less risk!!

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Originally Posted by Greg Gordon View Post
Innocent until proven guilty!
That's for lawyers, courts, and trials. I know when I've done something wrong. It's almost always when I'm thinking of my selfish needs and not the risks to others. I've heard it said that 80% of drivers consider themselves "above average drivers". They totally fail simple math! As my daddy taught me, "There is no grey area! It's BLACK and you are lying to yourself!"

Robert

Full disclosure: My Dad was a Deputy Sheriff (not involved in traffic at all), and one of my high school buddies was a CHP officer killed at a simple traffic stop by a guy that just robbed a 7-11.

Last edited by 60sRacer; 05-20-2011 at 01:30 PM.
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post #42 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-20-2011, 05:18 PM Thread Starter
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Rob,

I dont remember conveying he was calling while driving. His ticket was for parking in a red zone. He pulled over, stopped the car, put on flashers, and called his mechanic. The cop scorned at him that if he wasnt talking on the phone while he gave him the "thumb" signal, he would have seen it. He didnt accuse him though of talking WHILE driving. If I said he called while driving (Im not gonna review the posts), my mistake. The story ddeveloped and I learned as it developed. Greg is right on that cops dont need to treat the public like derelict loosers/ruffians/punks. Jr is anything but the opposite.

Cops and safety? Not a direct correlation with traffic safety-cops activity. I can suggest the book Traffic (300 pages with 100 more just with references). Yes, we need cops. Too bad there arent more of them, maybe theyd work without the work load.

I dont rmember that you get "points" for a parking ticket.........Yes, for speeding, for sure, but being parket?? Trafffic schiool? At this school, do they also teach you that sparks plus gas vapors equals BOOM?

But, if Rob is right about Jr having to maybe take a day off to appear in Court, geez, thats not a bargain. I didnt know. Also, court fees???? Yikes. hey Shadow, maybe we ought to rethink this effort........LOL

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Last edited by Joe Papa Sr; 05-20-2011 at 05:55 PM.
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post #43 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-20-2011, 05:53 PM
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What Is It With These LA Cops??

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Originally Posted by Joe Papa Sr View Post
... I dont rmember that you get "points" for a parking ticket.........Yes, for speeding, for sure, but being parket?? Trafffic schiool?
As I stated in an earlier post sometimes it's just easier and cheaper to pay the ticket whether you feel that you deserved it or not.

Here's a link to the California cell phone law; even if you're cited for talking, texting, etc. while driving, even though it is technically a moving violation, no points are involved. I believe it falls under the same category as a seat belt ticket, where points aren't involved, only fees.

The link is to NOLO, a business that specializes in the publication of law material, from legal information and laws to forms, like do your own divorce.

Link: http://www.nolo.com/legal-encycloped...law-29709.html

Cheryl
(Not an authority nor SME on anything, just PATSYF)
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post #44 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-20-2011, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by 60sRacer View Post

Also, your stats are misleading. Cops are #12, and it's the highest risk PUBLIC SERVICE job. All the higher ranked ones are commercial, and involve large group accidents (which skews the statistics for an individual's risk). Firefighters are next. Even military soldiers are at less risk!!

Robert
Dead is dead, what difference does it make if you were in a public service vs. a private sector job? Also, those are not my stats, and most other stats on the internet show similar rankings.

I can't take the time to respond to everything else in your post, so I will just agree to disagree.

Greg
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post #45 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-20-2011, 07:21 PM
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Rob,

I dont remember conveying he was calling while driving. His ticket was for parking in a red zone. He pulled over, stopped the car, put on flashers, and called his mechanic. The cop scorned at him that if he wasnt talking on the phone while he gave him the "thumb" signal, he would have seen it. He didnt accuse him though of talking WHILE driving. If I said he called while driving (Im not gonna review the posts), my mistake. The story ddeveloped and I learned as it developed. Greg is right on that cops dont need to treat the public like derelict loosers/ruffians/punks. Jr is anything but the opposite.

Cops and safety? Not a direct correlation with traffic safety-cops activity. I can suggest the book Traffic (300 pages with 100 more just with references). Yes, we need cops. Too bad there arent more of them, maybe theyd work without the work load.

I dont rmember that you get "points" for a parking ticket.........Yes, for speeding, for sure, but being parket?? Trafffic schiool? At this school, do they also teach you that sparks plus gas vapors equals BOOM?

But, if Rob is right about Jr having to maybe take a day off to appear in Court, geez, thats not a bargain. I didnt know. Also, court fees???? Yikes. hey Shadow, maybe we ought to rethink this effort........LOL
Yeah, what Joe Papa said!
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