What is it with these LA cops?? - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-11-2011, 07:03 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Pat Braden View Post
Not a lawyer, but I would be willing to bet, that if the engine was running the cop will counter with that's the same as sitting at a red light, when technically, you're not moving/driving, but using your cell phone is illegal except for blue tooth or hands free. And yes, I've been known to pull over to the curb, when I get a call or receive a text and sit and talk or text, without turning my engine off, which I'm sure is not allowed under the law, especially, under this definition which seems to indicate you could be sitting still by the use of the word controlling.

driving: the act of controlling and steering the movement of a vehicle or animal
animal.....lol. Thanks, Cheryl.. I have to ask Jr if the engine was off. Still, if its as you say, even with engine off (he had the emerg flashers on too), I guess a phone is illegal, if the only ones allowed are blue tooth/hands free.....

Sheesh. Still Im not giving up- we will write a letter.

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post #17 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-11-2011, 08:10 PM
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Not a lawyer either, and haven't really looked for the definition of "drive a motor vehicle or while driving."

This may help though (not necessarily specific to the situation, but might help form an argument):

Vehicle code Definitions

463. "Park or parking" shall mean the standing of a vehicle,
whether occupied or not, otherwise than temporarily for the purpose
of and while actually engaged in loading or unloading merchandise or
passengers.

530. A "roadway" is that portion of a highway improved, designed,
or ordinarily used for vehicular travel.

587. "Stop or stopping" when prohibited shall mean any cessation of
movement of a vehicle, whether occupied or not, except when
necessary to avoid conflict with other traffic or in compliance with
the direction of a police officer or official traffic control device
or signal.

590. "Street" is a way or place of whatever nature, publicly
maintained and open to the use of the public for purposes of
vehicular travel. Street includes highway.

Here's a portion of VEHICLE CODE
SECTION 22500

22500. No person shall stop, park, or leave standing any vehicle
whether attended or unattended, except when necessary to avoid
conflict with other traffic or in compliance with the directions of a
peace officer or official traffic control device....

You never know, just the simple act of contesting a ticket with an argument that makes some semblance of logical sense can be enough to have a ticket dismissed.

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post #18 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-11-2011, 08:43 PM
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Now trying to see problems with this etc. You got the thing of "while operating a motor vehicle." The VC specifically and only states, "drive a motor vehicle or while driving." Although operating a motor vehicle may well encompass driving, you could argue that he was by definition stopped or parked, in order to avoid conflict with other traffic, due to a problem with the vehicle and not actually driving, although operating a motor vehicle.

...and I could just be talking out my a**

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Last edited by shadowburn; 05-11-2011 at 08:50 PM.
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post #19 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-11-2011, 10:29 PM
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Joe just to let you know, if your son was stopped or parked in a bus zone and he only got the ticket for a cellphone, he got a pretty good deal. A bus zone ticket is super expensive.
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post #20 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-12-2011, 06:44 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowburn View Post
Not a lawyer either, and haven't really looked for the definition of "drive a motor vehicle or while driving."

This may help though (not necessarily specific to the situation, but might help form an argument):

Vehicle code Definitions

463. "Park or parking" shall mean the standing of a vehicle,
whether occupied or not, otherwise than temporarily for the purpose
of and while actually engaged in loading or unloading merchandise or
passengers.

530. A "roadway" is that portion of a highway improved, designed,
or ordinarily used for vehicular travel.

587. "Stop or stopping" when prohibited shall mean any cessation of
movement of a vehicle, whether occupied or not, except when
necessary to avoid conflict with other traffic or in compliance with
the direction of a police officer or official traffic control device
or signal.

590. "Street" is a way or place of whatever nature, publicly
maintained and open to the use of the public for purposes of
vehicular travel. Street includes highway.

Here's a portion of VEHICLE CODE
SECTION 22500

22500. No person shall stop, park, or leave standing any vehicle
whether attended or unattended, except when necessary to avoid
conflict with other traffic or in compliance with the directions of a
peace officer or official traffic control device....

You never know, just the simple act of contesting a ticket with an argument that makes some semblance of logical sense can be enough to have a ticket dismissed.
Thanks, Shad. Notice section 22500 just above- thats it. ".....except when necessaryto avoid conflictwith other traffic....". maybe I could use this when we write the letter. Seems fair/logical one should stop a car to prevent something worse happening......

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post #21 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-12-2011, 06:46 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowburn View Post
Now trying to see problems with this etc. You got the thing of "while operating a motor vehicle." The VC specifically and only states, "drive a motor vehicle or while driving." Although operating a motor vehicle may well encompass driving, you could argue that he was by definition stopped or parked, in order to avoid conflict with other traffic, due to a problem with the vehicle and not actually driving, although operating a motor vehicle.

...and I could just be talking out my a**
oops- you already noticed this very important point in the code. Boy, I feel a little better now. This shouyld help. (hey, anything one can get his hands on is a plus)

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post #22 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-12-2011, 07:50 AM
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What Is It with LA Cops?

Sometimes, it's better to cut your losses and accept that it could have been much worse. I can't vouch for these ticket violation fees, but I do know San Francisco is inherently more expensive to live in than many other cities in almost every respect, plus it depends on what the individual city is trying to curb or is having problems with obtaining compliance. I know in my local area, the Disabled Parking fines are posted as a "minimum" of $385. Blocking an intersection, which we have lots of problems with, is a "minimum" fine of $500.

Link: Updated California traffic ticket fines | San Francisco | Yelp

Cheryl
(Not an authority nor SME on anything, just PATSYF)
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post #23 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-12-2011, 07:52 AM
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LOL, if you want you could really try and push it, but then it brings into light the location of where he was parked. Since he wasn't ticketed for it, it might work.

490. "Private road or driveway" is a way or place in private
ownership and used for vehicular travel by the owner and those having
express or implied permission from the owner but not by other
members of the public.

From VC 23123. ...(g) This section does not apply to a person while driving a motor vehicle on private property....

Hey its a stretch, but the general public can't park there, only the buses MTA or whatever, could be considered private property owned by the city or MTA or whomever and then its not subject to VC 23123.

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post #24 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 07:31 AM Thread Starter
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Fellow members,

I got the copy of the ticket. Am preparing to write a contesting letter. The ticket says "violation od code 10.07.170- parking in red zone" Heres the link:
10.07.170 Illegal Parking In Red Zone..

I read it and it unfortunately omits the key exception to parking that I was hoping to use- that one can park IF in a case of emergency/etc, basically. Like, they give one no exceptions. BUT, doesnt mean one cant use it as a reason just the same. It maynot be a slam dunk- none of these situations are. Like O.J.- will he go free or not(?).

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post #25 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 07:33 AM Thread Starter
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this is what I will hedge my bet on:

Here's a portion of VEHICLE CODE
SECTION 22500

22500. No person shall stop, park, or leave standing any vehicle
whether attended or unattended, except when necessary to avoid
conflict with other traffic or in compliance with the directions of a
peace officer or official traffic control device....


Thats it. Any comments appreciated, as always, people.

Sr.

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post #26 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 09:02 AM
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Seems to me he was trying to avoid a conflict with other traffic, either from his car dying and blocking traffic, or dropping an exhaust part onto the road, causing damage to other vehicles.

Certainly can't hurt to to write a calm, polite explanation. A photo of the offending muffler might help.

Good luck, I recently funded the CA general fund to the tune of $370 for an 84 in a 65 zone. **** new BMW is wicked fast. And no good way for me to argue that I was tired of being stuck behind two trucks lumbering up a hill at 55 MPH. Oops.

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post #27 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 09:28 AM
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All the technicalities aside, I see this one as a case of the govt. fleecing a citizen. He wasn't engaged in an activity that cost anybody and money, nor did it put anyone in danger. In fact, it was probably the safest course of action he could have taken.

Greg
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post #28 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Papa Sr View Post
...I read it and it unfortunately omits the key exception to parking that I was hoping to use- that one can park IF in a case of emergency/etc, basically. Like, they give one no exceptions. BUT, doesnt mean one cant use it as a reason just the same. It maynot be a slam dunk- none of these situations are. Like O.J.- will he go free or not(?).
So, it is a citation for violating a West Hollywood Municipal code. Still, they do also fall under the California Vehicle codes.

Also, from the West Hollywood site;

Parking Violation. “Parking violation” means the breach or intrusion of a vehicle required to comply with any general parking legislation enforced under the provisions of West Hollywood Municipal Code Chapter 10.07 and/or the California Vehicle Code that warrants the issuance of a parking citation penalty to the vehicle’s registered owner.

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post #29 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 10:10 AM
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A couple of strategies (taken from another website):

Prove Your Conduct Was "Legally Justified"

You may also successfully argue that your actions were "legally justified" considering the circumstances of your alleged violation.

Here are a couple of examples of situations in which this defense might work:

* You are forced to stop on a freeway because your car has begun to make a loud and dangerous-sounding noise and you fear you would put other drivers in danger if you continued to drive without checking it out.

Prove Your Conduct Was Necessary to Avoid Harm

Emergencies not of your own making are often another legal "necessity" defense, recognized in all 50 states. To take an extreme example, you should be able to beat a charge of speeding if you can prove you sped up to avoid an out-of-control truck. The key here is to convincingly argue that you were forced to violate the exact wording of a traffic law in order to avoid a serious and immediate danger to yourself or others.

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Last edited by shadowburn; 05-16-2011 at 11:48 AM.
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post #30 of 53 (permalink) Old 05-16-2011, 10:24 AM
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Here are parts of a trial by declaration that I made and submitted, and might help with your situation. I omitted and changed some things already, but you may have to change things or see if they apply (Vehicle code etc.):

I submit this written declaration to the Court pursuant to CVC 40902.

In response to the charge of being in violation of CVC ***, I plead Not Guilty.

Citing Officer ****** basis for this citation and his testimony is based on an incorrect assumption of facts, and not on actual events, conditions, or actions that he could or did see.

Officer ****'s point of observation was one that did not and could not afford him a clear and unobstructed view of the location and events where the alleged violation is said to have occured.

Officer **** could not see my vehicle as it approached and entered the intersection of *****.

Officer **** could not see that I gave no indication or signal, of an intention or desire, to park (where). My intended route of travel was to continue on ***, with a final destination ***. This is approximately **** mile further west from ****.

In accordance with the California Evidence Code:
A. Pursuant to Evidence Code Section 600(a)
Officer **** charge of violating CVC*** is presumption and is not evidence.
B. Pursuant to Evidence Code Section 600(b)
Due to Officer ***'s inability to clearly see the entire location of where the alleged violation is said to have occured, as well as all events, conditions, and the resulting actions, an inference can not be made, as to the violation of CVC ***.

What did occur at the (where) was legally justifiable and lawfully necessary, due to an emergency situation. The events required immediate action to remedy the situation and avoid a collision.

The California Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices states:
"Traffic control devices shall be defined as all signs, signals, markings, and other devices
used to regulate, warn, or guide traffic, placed on, over, or adjacent to a street, highway,
pedestrian facility, or bike way by the authority of a public agency having jurisdiction."

As such, pursuant to CVC 21462, I was acting in accordance with the law, taking the legally
necessary actions for the purposes of lawfully avoiding a collision.
I was in fact, not in violation of CVC ***.

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