Temprature - is this normal? - Page 6 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #76 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 01:32 AM
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post #58

I think it is the shroud contributing to your problem because there is not enough airflow in the area around the fans it is all concentrated through the fan area so 30% or more of the radiator airflow surface has effectively been blocked,

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post #77 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 06:46 AM
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I agree... the shroud appears to be too close to the radiator to provide a ducted airflow effect. Therefore it is simply blocking the airflow from escaping and dissipating. If it stood off the back of the radiator by an inch or so, then I think you would see an improvement in heat dissipation. But not the way it looks now.

And yes, retarded timing will prod an engine into running a bit hotter.

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post #78 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter A View Post
Id be doing a lot of shroud surgery that looked too tight. 🙂🍀. If that doesnt work get a new radiator. The radiator on my 3.0 in Seattle was being redone with slightly larger diameter core. The one in NJ is stock and works well enough.
I can't really pull the shroud further away, but I can open up the bottom rubber flaps and, maybe, cut holes on the sides to have more airflow. These are more or less the same as the Maserati Bi-Turbo fans (or at least I think), but that car probably had a much bigger radiator. It may well be this shroud just doesn't work on a GTV6. On the plus side, though, the fans are fantastic. They pull in about 3x more air than stock and are fairly quiet.
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post #79 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 10:45 AM
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So, maybe the simple solution is to let the fans run all the time? Or maybe one, and the other come on thermostatically controlled when really needed.

That and maybe make new mounts for the fan shroud rings, ie, diagonally mounted (aluminum) struts, or the like, instead of that big panel with the rectangular holes in it, as they have. Would be an interesting project.

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

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post #80 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 01:16 PM Thread Starter
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The fans running all the time would suck up too much current, no?. I'm more inclined to do "surgery" on the shroud itself by cutting holes while retaining structural integrity of it.
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post #81 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 07:25 PM
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OMG ! I've never seen such "shrouds" ! Maybe they are a cold climate thing. Get rid of them. When I lived in the UK and had an old SAAB 96 it was useful to block the radiator to get the car to warm up in much the same way. My utterly, painfully original GTV6 has no such shrouds. They are the problem, right there.
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post #82 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-05-2019, 11:21 PM
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Yup. Bad design in my book. The actual blade shrouds/cowls should be held in place by just several simple struts, thus allowing full flow through the radiator while still enhancing the efficiency of the blades themselves.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #83 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 05:26 PM
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Del, later cars do have complete shrouds but these sit well away from the radiator and smoothly direct airflow through large fan apertures. These latter cars also have aerodynamically designed air intakes on the front of the car that catch, compress and direct huge amounts of air through the radiators. The air flow through the front of the 116 GTV is (IMHO) pretty terrible. Alfa recognised this when it redesigned the front for the GTV6. This redesign ruined the lines of the front of the car but facilitated a larger radiator aperture.
This is why I added an oil cooler behind the radiator of my 79 2 litre. Where else can it go? The other dumb thing is that the air con condenser is added in front of the radiator. This severely reduces air flow at low speeds. given how poor the air con is in my '79 I removed it. It was, quite literally, dead weight.
The oil cooler option not onely keeps the engine temp down, it keeps the oil temp down which means the coolant acts directly on the components inside the engine. This is far more thermodynamically efficient. Alfa recognised this which is why they have finned sumps and large oil capacity.
Finally, the GTV6 bumper bar is a direct impediment to air flow and the air dam is far from optimised for cooling. Again IMHO...

On another note. By the 80's it is pretty clear that Alfa was struggling. They never fixed the gear change or synchro weaknesses and the 116 platform was milked until they cold get no more from it. The 116 was the last true "Alfa" platform. The 1980 redesign is a compromise. They kept the brilliant motor for decades but in a way that was all they could salvage.
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Last edited by Millsy; 08-06-2019 at 05:30 PM.
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post #84 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
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This is why I added an oil cooler behind the radiator of my 79 2 litre. Where else can it go? The other dumb thing is that the air con condenser is added in front of the radiator. This severely reduces air flow at low speeds. given how poor the air con is in my '79 I removed it. It was, quite literally, dead weight.
The oil cooler option not onely keeps the engine temp down, it keeps the oil temp down which means the coolant acts directly on the components inside the engine. This is far more thermodynamically efficient. Alfa recognised this which is why they have finned sumps and large oil capacity.
Finally, the GTV6 bumper bar is a direct impediment to air flow and the air dam is far from optimised for cooling. Again IMHO...
I agree with most of your points except the one about the A/C condenser in front of the radiator. While not the absolute best layout from a thermodynamic standpoint, this configuration is used by 99% of cars on the road today, and it is necessary from a packaging standpoint. The key factor is that the engineers need to design the extra capacity in the engine cooling and fan system to absorb the heat shedded by the condenser while the A/C is running.

Alfa Romeo in the 1970s and 1980s was probably not as diligent about this as most would have been. It must be said that in my '81 GTV6, I have not bothered to remove the non-functional A/C condenser from its location in front of the radiator, and the engine runs at the rated temp of the thermostat in any condition, but it would probably struggle at low speeds with hot air from the condenser adding to the load!

Chris A: '81 GTV6 rescued from junkyard, "GT" car/'86 Porsche 944 Turbo track/street car/'73 BMW 2002tii fun street car/'74 Jensen Healey Lemons Rally car!
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post #85 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-06-2019, 07:51 PM
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Uh... you can search but I don't think you'll find an automotive air conditioning condenser that's mounted anywhere BUT in front of the radiator.

And Millsy, in criticizing the 116 series, aren't you forgetting the Zagato RZ and SZ spinoffs of the excellent 116 chassis? Go back and read the road test reports on that car, and you will find it would run away and hide from many contemporary sports cars on the track.

ok... back to Gepetto's topic. Sorry...

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post #86 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-07-2019, 08:02 AM Thread Starter
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Continuing the off topic, I confess the 116 chassis (at least the GTV6) is superb, but the cooling system isn't really adequate for slow moving (with or without air conditioning). I had a Milano 3.0 that was more or less the same story, though it too never overheated on me. And @cda951 is right - by the 80's Alfa was in trouble. I wish they had the resources to improve the transmission and gearshift (oh, maybe a 6th gear, better feeling shift action).

Then again, these cars weren't really designed to just crawl around town anyway...for that you buy something else.
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post #87 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-07-2019, 08:58 AM
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I had my stock radiator rodded out and flushed. They discovered some small cracks and took care of them. Car runs just north of the 175* mark, in 100* plus weather. I do not have the AC condenser mounted, so maybe that has something to do with the better-than-reported-here performance.

Interesting issues with the shroud. That flap design is quite common in newer vehicles, and should have alleviated the airflow problem at high speed. I had planned to go to something like that when I reinstalled the AC. A rethink is in order.

Thanks for sticking with the analysis. Sometimes this gets pretty tedious.
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post #88 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-07-2019, 09:03 AM Thread Starter
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I want to be scientific about this, so multiple tests under the same conditions - but with one new thing added/taken away - are in order. Once I take out the bottom rubber flaps and open up more of the shroud, let's see what happens. This weekend should be about the same temperature in NYC last last, so it lends it self to science!
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post #89 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-07-2019, 09:38 AM
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Science! I love Science. Nothing better than the never ending search for knowledge, lol.

Well, a very cold beer on a very hot day is pretty darn nice...

Or, a great drive in any Alfa on a perfect winding road.

Keep us posted.
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Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #90 of 103 (permalink) Old 08-10-2019, 09:02 PM Thread Starter
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Exclamation Update - No dice!

Earlier today I was able to get the car up on the lift and pull out the bottom portion of the shroud (rubber flaps shown in previous pictures). Driving, it seemed to help at first, but there was too much traffic to really tell. Then, on the highway, the temp seemed normal but then I realized the fans were on. When I heard the fuse click for them to go off, the temp started rising again.

Determined to get a good highway run in for the sake of science, I took the car all the way from Queens to the Sagtikos Pkwy when there was no traffic. The temperature kept rising almost to the point to where the fans would turn on (see picture). I turned the heat full blast and the temp decreased a little, but never to 180 (even while doing 75mph!). The only way to get the temperature down was to coast in gear. When I pushed the car, the needled rose toward, but never quite reached, 100C/212F line on the gauge. While on the highway with the heat on, I was successful in keeping the fans off - which means water temp less than about 193.

Discouraged, I stopped at the Glen Cove Rd. Dunkin Donuts for an iced coffee (the heat in the car took it's toll on me). When I set off again, I decided to take empty Northern Blvd back as it was bumper to bumper on the highway heading back to NYC - and this turned out to be a lucky decision. While sitting at the light waiting to turn west onto Northern Blvd, the car sputtered and almost died. I gave it some throttle and it came back to life, but now the air conditioning had stopped working. The temperature kept rising and not really decreasing at stop lights with the fans on, so I popped the hood open while driving. As long as I was moving more than about 25mph, this actually lowered the temperature to 180. The faster I drove, the quicker the temperature decreased. The physics of this makes sense to me - the engine heat had somewhere to escape from.

When I got home, I opened to hood to find that the driver's side fan was kaput. As it's on the same fuse as the electromagnetic clutch for the A/C (#3), I suspect this fuse has blown. (I didn't check as I was too tired from driving 80 miles with the heat blasting for at least 50 miles). Earlier in afternoon the A/C worked well and was practically freezing me out of the car, so I'm not sure why the circuit would have blown the fuse.

At this point, it seems that taking parts of the shroud has had a positive, albeit small, effect. Now, at least turning on the heat in the car will actually cool down the water temp a little, so it seems that improved airflow is helping and I can proceed cutting some more holes in the shroud. But my sense is that something else, possibly more serious, is wrong. I reckon the next step is to 1) replace fuse #3, 2) check ignition timing. If igniting timing is correct and/or does nothing when adjusted, then 3) change thermostat with new one. Then work my way to changing hoses and perhaps another radiator is in order if it comes to that. (Speaking of which, does anyone know if the OEM ones from Alfissimo.com are actual, exact OEM radiators, and not aftermarket?).

As always, I appreciate all your feedback. You guys truly are the best!
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Last edited by Gepetto; 08-10-2019 at 09:13 PM.
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