Getting my GTV6 back on the road (was: Timing Belt Change Problem) - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-21-2018, 04:07 PM Thread Starter
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Getting my GTV6 back on the road (was: Timing Belt Change Problem)

EDIT: Changed thread title to reflect new purpose of thread

I had to replace my water pump this past weekend, which of course means replacing the timing belt. When I put everything back together, I apparently didn't get enough tension and ended up with the driver side cam off about half a tooth. I pulled that valve cover and adjusted the cam to line up with the reference mark, reinstalled the timing belt, and began turning the crankshaft. About half a rotation in, I realized there was slack in the belt in between the camshafts and the belt is off about a half tooth on the driver side again. I figured this was not a good thing and stopped.

At this point, nothing is set to TDC, and I don't have enough tension in the timing belt to feel confident about cranking things around to that point. I'm assuming I need to pull the other valve cover, get the cams and distributor lined up with TDC, but how do I get the crank back around without damaging anything?

-Chuck

Last edited by ghnl; 06-18-2018 at 05:51 AM. Reason: OP's request
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post #2 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-21-2018, 04:17 PM
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There may be faster ways, but the safest option might be to pull the cams.


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post #3 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-21-2018, 06:55 PM
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If you are within a tooth or two you won't break anything by slowly turning the engine manually. Do be sure you only turn it in the 'forwards' direction (clockwise as viewed from the front). If something stops the engine from turning freely then you will need to either re-position a cam or remove them as advised in the reply above.

I am unclear about this: "I apparently didn't get enough tension..." The tensioner provides the tension - you don't otherwise apply extra tension. Is your tensioner working properly? The springs can break - then they don't apply tension.

Although written for the Alfa 164, all of the info about that model's 12 valve engine also apply to the GTV6. See the links here for info & photos of the timing belt & tensioner(s)

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post #4 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-21-2018, 07:20 PM Thread Starter
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The "not enough tension" comment is about getting slack in the belt between the camshafts. I wouldn't expect there to be any slack if enough tension was on the belt.

I'll read through the recommended links.

-Chuck
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post #5 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-21-2018, 07:41 PM
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I usually turn the engine manually 3-4 revolutions after replacing the timing belt. This gets all the slack moved to the tensioner run and ensures there is no internal conflict. The tensioner is not strong enough by itself to pull all the slack out against the resistance of the valve springs against the cam shafts.

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post #6 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-22-2018, 05:16 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the additional info. I'll try rotating the crankshaft further (CAREFULLY) to see if things improve.

-Chuck
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post #7 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-22-2018, 07:38 PM
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Unless the cam gears are loose or modified you can only be off a tooth or integer number there are no half tooths.

I set the cams and crank to proper TDC marks, install belt from crank to left cam to right cam to aux pulley and then I install tensioner. Easy to keep things lined up that way. A helper makes things easier as he can hold the belt tension between pulleys as you install tensioner.

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post #8 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-28-2018, 10:06 AM Thread Starter
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Sorry for the poor description, I meant the belt was off about a half tooth due to the slack between the cam pulleys. I redid the timing based on the recommended write ups by Alfisto Steve and got everything situated without any issues.
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-Chuck
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post #9 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-28-2018, 08:35 PM
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Looks like you need to top up your brake fluid

'83 GTV6 - 164 12v 3.0 in!
'99 156 Twin spark - for track time fun! And ferrying the kids around in...
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post #10 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-29-2018, 05:45 AM
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Belt timing

Quote:
I apparently didn't get enough tension and ended up with the driver side cam off about half a tooth. I pulled that valve cover and adjusted the cam to line up with the reference mark, reinstalled the timing belt, and began turning the crankshaft. About half a rotation in, I realized there was slack in the belt in between the camshafts and the belt is off about a half tooth on the driver side again. I figured this was not a good thing and stopped.
The belt timing is critical from the crank pulley to the right cam sprocket (driver`s side). That said, yes, you CAN get a 1/2 tooth change in the belt position, as a 1 notch move on the crank pulley changes the belt position 1/2 notch at that cam sprocket.

As well the spacing between the two cam sprockets remain constant & the same # of teeth. So 1 notch on the crank will result in the position on the right sprocket to change 1/2 notch and advance or retard the left cam the same amount.

If you have had the heads milled that changes the entire crank to right pulley (height between them) and the distance between the left & right pulleys. I`ve posted a few times on how to get minor changes out of the sprockets, do a search. If you have milled the head more than .010 you will need adjustable sprockets which I have built for racers for years.

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old 05-29-2018, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfar7 View Post
If you have had the heads milled that changes the entire crank to right pulley (height between them) and the distance between the left & right pulleys. I`ve posted a few times on how to get minor changes out of the sprockets, do a search. If you have milled the head more than .010 you will need adjustable sprockets which I have built for racers for years.
I'm at least the third owner of this car, so don't know with certainty if the heads were ever milled. I have been told that some work was done on the engine, specifically oversized valves.

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Looks like you need to top up your brake fluid
The brakes will be flushed as I work my way through the major systems. Next up is to get the fuel pump working properly.

-Chuck
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post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 04:10 AM Thread Starter
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I was able to get the fuel pump working properly. It took be a couple of days of checking voltage at the combi-relay and pump; confirming fuel flow at pump, fuel rail, and pressure regulator; confirming spark at each plug; and stubbornness. Mostly I think it just took time to get the pump properly primed and all of the air purged, but the car is running for the first time in a few years.

Next up was checking to make sure the clutch and rear brakes weren't stuck, and had some good fortune in that I was able to shift through gears without issue, and the rear brakes worked as expected. I still need to replace the brake and clutch hoses and flush both systems, but it's nice to have a small win.

As I was letting the engine idle, I noticed the smell of antifreeze in the cabin and found a pretty solid stream of coolant coming from the heater valve area. I've read several threads on that particular failure and am planning on installing a ball valve in the engine bay to shut off flow for the time being. I won't have much need for a heater until around November. This leads me to my question. On a car with Tropic Air, is the OEM heater valve accessible without removing the add-on evaporator? Clearance seems pretty tight. I might be able to fit my hands in there, but don't know if I'll be able to actually turn a wrench.

Also, is the heater core removable without pulling the dash? I'm likely to go with an under hood heater valve as a permanent fix, and will need to add hose connections to the heater core.

-Chuck
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post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-15-2018, 07:41 PM Thread Starter
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The stock heater valve is pretty snug up against the Tropic Air add on evaporator. I was thinking I'd install one of the Jaguar XKE valves, but there's no space for it. For the time being, I installed a shut off valve in the return line next near the thermostat. I'll definitely have to do an under hood control valve.
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-Chuck
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post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-15-2018, 07:50 PM Thread Starter
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The next issue to deal with was the horn not working unless it was locked. Based on reading threads here, I was expecting to have to replace the ground that runs across the steering damper. I cleaned it up in preparation for replacing it, and lo and behold, the horn starting working as expected.

I'm geeked about an easy solution for this.
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-Chuck
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post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old 07-15-2018, 08:00 PM Thread Starter
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Now for a couple of questions:

First - What is the purpose of this nipple off the side of the brake master cylinder reservoir? It's currently capped with a vacuum cap, but that will only last so long before the brake fluid eats it.

Second - What is the second switch/sensor on the AC drier? I saw the same on on '82 without the Tropic Air system, so it's not directly related to that.
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-Chuck
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