1984 Maratona "Ran when parked..." - Page 24 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #346 of 1099 (permalink) Old 05-01-2018, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by horsewidower View Post
I'm doing the bushings, ball joints, tie rods and whatever else comes in Centerline's front suspension kit.

And the adjustable torsion bar mount.

What is your camber spec?

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As to chamber spec. I have no idea. At the shop I worked at we sent all the cars to Gran Turismo in Atlanta. Which is one of the best shops for street, performance and racing alignments.

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post #347 of 1099 (permalink) Old 05-01-2018, 05:18 PM
Del
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Seems like I remember (from a long long time ago) the adjustment ends up, after manipulation of the torsion bars at their front and rear mounts equivalent to somewhere around 1/2 notch, or maybe less? It's not much. Maybe somewhere around 1 inch lower?

Someone who has done it and remembers more should chime in. I just don't remember anymore, been too long ago.
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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #348 of 1099 (permalink) Old 05-01-2018, 05:21 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Del View Post
Seems like I remember (from a long long time ago) the adjustment ends up, after manipulation of the torsion bars at their front and rear mounts equivalent to somewhere around 1/2 notch, or maybe less? It's not much. Maybe somewhere around 1 inch lower?

Someone who has done it and remembers more should chime in. I just don't remember anymore, been too long ago.


I was planning to adjust it so that the A-arms are horizontal to the ground, with at least 5" of clearance to the sump. Thoughts?


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post #349 of 1099 (permalink) Old 05-01-2018, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
I was planning to adjust it so that the A-arms are horizontal to the ground
That is correct according to Richard Jemison, my Alfa suspension guru. It is all to do with camber gain as the car corners.

The last time that I was at the track I was running with .7 degrees negative camber and 3 degrees caster. The steering was fairly neutral with some mid corner understeer that may have been due to my imperfect driving. I went off the track twice when I ran wide so a little extra bite in the front tires will be helpful. I have since increased the caster to 3.7 degrees (1 full turn of the caster arm). I plan to go to 1 degree camber but I already have wear on the insides of the front tires so I am taking it slowly.
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post #350 of 1099 (permalink) Old 05-01-2018, 06:31 PM
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If you get wear on the inside of the tread, you might need to change the toe in the positive direction just a tad more. It's certainly what we've had to do with 164s with their excessive(?) negative camber.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

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post #351 of 1099 (permalink) Old 05-01-2018, 08:12 PM
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Bob, like they say if you don't lower it too much, the pedestals (or spacers) will probably be ok. The official number I've seen is to shave off .313" (5/16") from the pedestal height, to bring the lower ball joint back closer to original position if the car's lowered. The problem we have with Mike's car is that a PO dropped it way too far, and he's had to deal with bad tire wear due to the camber. We are going to raise it back up, such that the car sits level, or close to level, front to rear. Right now it's in the shop in Cincinnati for a seized pilot bearing in the Sachs clutch pack (new last year).

I checked the A arms out, and the camber, and it's so low that the front end has between 1 to 2 degrees neg camber at rest, unloaded, with the stock thickness pedestals. And only a couple of thin shims. I attach a couple of photos below to show you what you DON'T want in terms of lowering.
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post #352 of 1099 (permalink) Old 05-01-2018, 08:25 PM
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My feeling, and understanding from my mechanic, was that the US height was just an adjustment up from the European height, and that if restored to the European design height, the suspension would be correct as designed, rather than what you get with the US height. In other words, I'm not sure any other adjustment of the suspension is required.

Certainly, I never had any complaint with tire wear or handling in any of the Alfettas or GTV6s we drove, at least for the street.

Race setup, that's a different subject of course. Usually, with those setups you end up with something not very suitable for street use long term.

I think an example of that was the original front suspension alignment for the 164 from the factory. Wore out front tires at a prodigious rate. Totally unsuitable for the street long term. Alfa did change the alignment (toe setting) to basically what we had come to as street users.
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Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

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post #353 of 1099 (permalink) Old 05-01-2018, 08:49 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks, gentleman. Plenty to think about.

I sprayed all the bolts, nuts and splines with penetrant, agitated the torsion bars with a heavy rubber mallet, tried out the bolt in the bar pulling method (only to find out the bolts I purchased were too short) and cleared off 6' of bench space in anticipation of the multitude of removed parts. I picked up some heavy duty marine grease, and will order some VHT satin black epoxy tomorrow.

Might as well jump in with both feet!


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You're kidding, another one?! 1984 GTV6 Maratona
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You didn't...oh yes I did. '73 Berlina graduate course in rust repair. No thread yet, don't want to piss off the GTV

You didn't...oh yes I did II. 1995 164LS 5 speed, awesome when it runs!!!

Musings on shop related items:
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post #354 of 1099 (permalink) Old 05-01-2018, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
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As an observation, someone had fiddled with the torsion bars before, as evidenced by some paint marks on the bars, and the prior down pipes crushed condition.


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View my '74 GTV restoration at:
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But wait there's more: View my 164LS thread:
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You're kidding, another one?! 1984 GTV6 Maratona
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You didn't...oh yes I did. '73 Berlina graduate course in rust repair. No thread yet, don't want to piss off the GTV

You didn't...oh yes I did II. 1995 164LS 5 speed, awesome when it runs!!!

Musings on shop related items:
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post #355 of 1099 (permalink) Old 05-01-2018, 09:08 PM
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I bought a 79 Alfetta Sports Sedan from the dealer in 1980. Essentially a new car. Some 6 years later, the handling went suddenly bad. As when driving along a straight at about 80 mph. Seriously wandering left and right.
Put in a new set of every suspension bushing and those lasted for some ten years.
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post #356 of 1099 (permalink) Old 05-01-2018, 09:12 PM Thread Starter
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My hope is to complete stripping out the passenger side suspension Wednesday, and do the same to the driver's side Thursday. I'll need to clean and paint the passenger's side first. I want the paint to dry for at least 24 hours.

Probably too aggressive a schedule, but I'm a hopeless optimist.


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But wait there's more: View my 164LS thread:
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You're kidding, another one?! 1984 GTV6 Maratona
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You didn't...oh yes I did. '73 Berlina graduate course in rust repair. No thread yet, don't want to piss off the GTV

You didn't...oh yes I did II. 1995 164LS 5 speed, awesome when it runs!!!

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post #357 of 1099 (permalink) Old 05-02-2018, 04:37 AM
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As an observation, someone had fiddled with the torsion bars before, as evidenced by some paint marks on the bars, and the prior down pipes crushed condition.


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Once cleaned you should find the factory marks stamped in both the lower a arm and the bar where they slide together. Find them before you take them a part. Which will tell you how many notches they were lowered.
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post #358 of 1099 (permalink) Old 05-02-2018, 06:28 AM
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when you set the car up - both ride height and alignment - be sure to put your weight in the driver seat and maybe 1/2 tank fuel. if bringing back to stock, follow the manual recommendations for weight in car.
especially when you think the front ride heights are way off, i think would be easier to set both sides up at same session..
if you can find the original marks, can count splines and get back to there fairly easily. if not, some trial and error will be required, but not too many times.
you are in california, so perhaps the factory method of bar removal will work.... my experience is (not in california) - be prepared to go to plan B.
manual on front ride height
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post #359 of 1099 (permalink) Old 05-02-2018, 08:43 AM Thread Starter
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That is excellent information. Thanks so much for posting those dimensions.

Bob

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But wait there's more: View my 164LS thread:
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You're kidding, another one?! 1984 GTV6 Maratona
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You didn't...oh yes I did. '73 Berlina graduate course in rust repair. No thread yet, don't want to piss off the GTV

You didn't...oh yes I did II. 1995 164LS 5 speed, awesome when it runs!!!

Musings on shop related items:
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post #360 of 1099 (permalink) Old 05-02-2018, 04:32 PM
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If I recall earlier posts correctly, the spline count differential between front and rear of the torsion bars allows fine adjustments, if required - e.g. If moving plus 1 on the coarse spline is too much, or moving plus one on the fine spline is too little, going plus 1 on the coarse AND minus 1 on the fine splines brings things back a little.
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