Are my plug wires bad and if so would that cause stalling after the car is hot? - Page 7 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #91 of 302 (permalink) Old 03-29-2017, 05:05 PM Thread Starter
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It's been one thing after another, and all with more or less the same symptoms! Stalling, no start, rough running, misfire.


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'82 GTV6
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post #92 of 302 (permalink) Old 03-29-2017, 08:00 PM
Del
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This is is only a random thought, but could you hot wire the ignition switch, bypass it? Pull the covers off and run a wire from the battery? That would bypass any fuse such as maybe #12, is it? that might be inline as well.

I assume the #12 fuse (or other applicable) is new? Maybe the one in there is cracked or dirty, oxidized, making contact when cold but only partially or not at all when cold? Those of us with 164 have trouble with the big 40A strap fuses cracking and subsequently acting up or not conducting at all.

There might be a remote chance the switch itself is acting up after being turned on for a while, oxidation/corrosion inside perhaps raising the temperature as current runs through it, and it then not making good contact inside. The switch in our Milano acted up like that for a while, and I had to take it apart and clean it thoroughly, taking out a little broken piece as well.

Just a thought, seeing as how you've looked at almost everything else. Actually don't know if your GTV6 switch is the same as our Milano. They are not really good quality switches.
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Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

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post #93 of 302 (permalink) Old 03-29-2017, 08:11 PM Thread Starter
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Well, I installed a relay in the ignition circuit a while back, and the problem pre-dated that job. I had the same thought, which is why I finally got around to doing it! No change, although I get a little peace of mind that the circuit is more robust than it was. The switch was bad when I got the car and would turn off whenever I made a hard left. Larry at APE hooked me up with a replacement. Figured the relay would stave off any future theatrics.

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post #94 of 302 (permalink) Old 03-29-2017, 08:27 PM
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I'd still try the bypass, and also change any appropriate fuses. One just never knows, lol. It does sound like some sort of hot connection problem to me, but then again, my 2 GTV6's ran perfectly, so I can only guess. MY experience with these newer (lol, sort of) V6 Alfas is that electrical connections are the real bugaboos. The rest, the mechanical problems, are mostly just old age and long term wear, common to all older cars, hopefully picked up at inspections and regular maintenance.

Alfa of Tacoma has an aftermarket diagnostic computer (the size of a small suitcase) which he used on our Milano to chase down a problem it had, which turned out to be the double relay for the pump. Too bad you are not here, as he thought it worked pretty well chasing weird problems. He complained that they paid very good money for it but almost never use it.

good luck,
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Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 03-29-2017 at 08:35 PM.
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post #95 of 302 (permalink) Old 03-30-2017, 08:22 AM
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You might try getting down and using your phone to record the sound of the of the fuel pump when it's running well, and then when the fuel pressure drops, to hear if it's intermittent or struggling.

If by chance you can't afford LSD, buy yourself a color TV. - Godard

1982 GTV6
1973 GTV2000
1971 Karmann Ghia Vert
1982 Land Cruiser
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post #96 of 302 (permalink) Old 03-30-2017, 09:07 AM Thread Starter
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Well, now the car won't stay running for more than about 5 seconds, and touching the throttle at all causes it to instantly die.For the few seconds it runs the vacuum reading SEEMS solid, although it bounces a bit as the engine dies. I might try hotwiring the fuel pump to see if that makes a difference. And I'll jam the AFM flap open to see if I can get an audio recording of the pump running.

My local Advance Auto actually has a few Bosch pumps on the shelf (I guess BMW and a few other Euro marques use the same part) so I can grab one for about $100 if I need it. Also have the regulator. I guess I'm blessed with a big box parts store that actually has their stuff together. The guys who work there are all gearheads and have helped me out in the past. Good stuff.
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post #97 of 302 (permalink) Old 03-30-2017, 09:09 AM
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Keep us posted, Mr Chairman. I am keenly interested to see how this all works out for you. That Alfa will live, and run, and run well-- I have faith in you and the car!

alfaloco
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post #98 of 302 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 09:50 AM Thread Starter
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Alright. New off the shelf fuel pump (not Bosch), new fuel filter, fuel pressure gauge, vacuum gauge, digital tach. I've bypassed the inertia switch and the AAV, replacing that with a heater core valve that can be manually toggled with a clutch cable.

A few things. It's still running like garbage, but maybe it's old/bad gas, even though I use stabilizer. I'm going to drain the tank again and refill with something with Techron.

Fuel pressure is a little low, but I can probably chalk that up to the $10 Harbor Freight gauge - it's always read a little low, and is at least steady.

Vacuum is low and bounces a bit, but maybe not enough to indicate a burned cylinder. That's with the airbox on and off. Leak? Maybe the plenum.

Revs are bouncy, but no audible misfire. Could be the inductive lead picking up voltage from another cable?

This could all very well come back to the AFM or ECU, huh? I think I have a lead to borrow some known good spares and try them out.

EDIT: Lots of oil in the air intake and AFM body. Pulled the oil vapor separator and there was a whitish goo in the neck. I think I might have bigger problems... No sign of oil in the coolant bottle though, or vice versa.


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'82 GTV6

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post #99 of 302 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chairmankaga View Post
EDIT: Lots of oil in the air intake and AFM body. Pulled the oil vapor separator and there was a whitish goo in the neck. I think I might have bigger problems... No sign of oil in the coolant bottle though, or vice versa.[/url]
Eh, that's probably normal. My Milano always had a crap-ton of oil in the intake hose. And the whitish goo (if there's just a little) is probably just a little emulsified oil/water from the crankcase vapors from not driving it enough.
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post #100 of 302 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
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Well that's good to know! My air intake was always a little oily, but this seems excessive.

But now the car is doing exactly what it was doing before the fuel filter, then fuel pump swap. Even though fuel pressure is now normal, it still chokes and dies. Vacuum is consistently low, about 12 psi. Last time I checked compression, which was maybe 6 months ago, all cylinders were within 10% of one another, although all a bit low, but consistent with an older engine.

This is beyond frustrating...

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post #101 of 302 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 11:00 AM
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That OVS might be pretty gooped up. They get that way, and stop functioning as they should. I think the one for the GTV6 and Milano is far too small (the 164 is bigger but still only partially effective), and it doesn't have a separate return hose. Make sure everything is clean and clear, and hose clamps are tight.

The 164s have trouble with the OVS becoming pretty bad, and the little return hose (which you don't have) to the crankcase can get blocked, so that there will be an excess of oil getting into the intake bellows. Can get messy.

Chocolate mousse showing up, esp under the oil filler cap, indicates a coolant leak into the oil. A head retorque will many times stop that. I don't think the mousse in the OVS is a real problem. My own opinion is that these V6 engines could use a head retorque. My91S had problems with heads which were not tight, chocolate mousse showing up, and a retorque at 100k miles solved that problem. No oil in the coolant, but the other way around.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #102 of 302 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 11:08 AM Thread Starter
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I'll soak the thing. Apparently, you can flush them with gas then carb cleaner?

I'm more worried about the vacuum situation. I still can't keep the car running, and even touching the throttle the slightest bit causes it to die almost instantly.

How do we test for leaks, short of just pulling everything off and reinstalling it? In my experience that's not really the most effective method. All of the hoses are new silicone pieces. No splits or tears. Everything plumbed correctly. No obvious cracks in the air intake snorkus, although I'll pull it, clean it, and check it out again. Plenum hoses are also new, and the plenum is tight and flush on all six.

I DO hear a hiss around the throttle body, although I was told that's normal. Using a stethoscope and a funnel on a bit of vacuum hose, I don't hear anything that would indicate a leak. Open propane floated around the intakes causes no noticeable jump.

FYI, last year I had to rebuild a head. New gasket, torqued to spec. I've barely driven it 500 miles since then. The passenger side cam was off by a tooth so that was corrected when I reinstalled the belt. I checked a few months ago (since the car was laid up non-running) and it was still aligned. Timing is on the nose, too. Advances correctly. Well, it did, back when I could open the throttle to check it!

as good as a car can be... briefly.
'82 GTV6

Last edited by chairmankaga; 04-01-2017 at 11:10 AM.
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post #103 of 302 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 01:27 PM
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Just as a side note, a vacuum leak will make it run poorly, but it won't keep it from running.

If by chance you can't afford LSD, buy yourself a color TV. - Godard

1982 GTV6
1973 GTV2000
1971 Karmann Ghia Vert
1982 Land Cruiser
1988 Land Cruiser
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post #104 of 302 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 01:51 PM
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The OVR units are very hard to clean. Took me several days of soaking with degreaser fluid (or I suppose kerosene would work) and washing out to do the spare I have. Of course, the 164 unit IS bigger.

To check for air leaks, use an unlit propane torch. Wave it closely around everywhere in the bay with the engine running (if you can keep it running long enough). If there is any air leak at all, the engine will rev. Found a very obscure leak in my LS engine bay (in the cc setup, not near the engine) doing just that.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 04-01-2017 at 01:56 PM.
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post #105 of 302 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 05:40 PM Thread Starter
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Hey, funny story. I forgot I still had the rear on jack stands, and realized I'd only put in a few drops of gas. Maybe it wasn't getting any fuel. So I dropped the car, put in 2 gallons, and fired it up.

At least it runs! But still stalls. Argh.

Cleaned and inspected the intake snorkus - no cracks or tears. Tightened everything down. Checked every vacuum hose.

So I'm wondering if it isn't an AFM issue. If I open the manual AAV all the way, the car will pull a strong idle. If I touch it at all, the vacuum will drop below 20" and the engine will begin stumbling. If I close it, the engine stalls.
This is sort of weird, because if there's a vacuum leak, that means unmetered air is getting it, which should cause it to run lean. But the AVV is designed to let in unmetered air, and the engine runs better with it open.
I've also opened up the idle bypass, presumably letting in as much air as possible when the AAV is open.

I also rechecked compression.
1-160
2-155
3-160
4-148
5-148
6-155

The driver's side bank is lower, which I chalk up to the fact that a couple of years ago I had the passenger side head rebuilt, and the seals were pretty crummy. I imagine the other side is a little leaky with the factory seals still in place.

So maybe it's a bum AFM? Or a leak elsewhere? Maybe it's an injector seal?

Grrr.

as good as a car can be... briefly.
'82 GTV6
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