Are my plug wires bad and if so would that cause stalling after the car is hot? - Page 20 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #286 of 302 (permalink) Old 06-04-2017, 10:21 AM
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If bending over the pass side the Hall Effect plug will be opposite you at about the 1 o'clock. Pull plug to check as I think the blue receptacle is embossed as to (+) and (-) but I think from that vantage point, left pin ground, right pin pwr and center is your output 5v signal. Place your multi-meter on outside pins and measure voltage across while ign. "on" Should be >5v but not full voltage. If 12v (or whatever battery is at), may indicate faulty ignition module.

It's important that the Hall Effect signal wire is properly shielded.

Hmm. Here's an extract of the diagram. Doesn't seem to line-up with what I was saying, but I think 'G' stands for Green (not ground)! Lol

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post #287 of 302 (permalink) Old 06-04-2017, 10:31 AM Thread Starter
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Mines an older 2-wire system but I did get the setup from GMJohns. Mine was reversed, hence the non-start. It's also likely been the culprit of many of my issues. Prior to replacing the stock connector (wiring was broken too close to splice) I feel it was probably shorting out intermittently. I also had a failing ignition amp that was overheating (previous post about being so hot it burned my hand) and likely frying the coil. Bottom line I seem to have a cascade of ignition failures that I HOPE stem from this one GD'ed coaxial wire. If it's possible for reversing the wires to fry the amp, coil or other components then I think that explains the whole problem. The fact there are multiple systems out there depending upon model year has only made it all more complicated. More later, once I have the engine back together and can test fire on a fully charged battery.


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post #288 of 302 (permalink) Old 06-04-2017, 03:06 PM
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Good luck, sounds like you are on to something.


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post #289 of 302 (permalink) Old 06-04-2017, 03:14 PM Thread Starter
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Hey guys.


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post #290 of 302 (permalink) Old 06-04-2017, 03:22 PM Thread Starter
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Wanna know what I did? Aside from reversing the wiring from the distributor? That was causing the total non-start situation. But to solve the start/stall that's been the actual issue for months?

Removed the fuel pressure gauge. I even got my wife to help. I've noted that my fuel pressure had been fine, according the the gauge installed before the rail. I went ahead and pulled out the rail, disabled the coil, and cranked the engine to make sure each injector was firing and/or not sticking open. I'd done this check previously, but after watching several videos on what a healthy injector pattern should look like, I concluded mine looked WEAK. Just on a whim I replaced the gauge with a new segment of FI hose, and the injectors were spraying much more vigorously. I suppose the nipple for the gauge was somehow obstructing fuel flow without spiking the pressure? I noted it was protruding maybe 1/8" through the adapter. Anything is possible I suppose. Butt that's all I did. Removed the gauge, and the car ran.

And it ran the car for a good 15 minutes just now!

I do still have a problem though. I have to run the ignition fairly advanced with a fast idle (1500-ish warm) to keep vacuum up and idle steady. I'd say it's halfway between the P and the M marks. Maybe I just don't have the idle and timing balanced out yet? As jacked up as everything was I assume that's likely.

I did fry my new MSD coil and am using my original one without the ballast resistor. I'm also running a replacement ignition amp, although I'll try the solid state replacement I'd been using before committing to buy an original-style Bosch part. Some wiring needs to be cleaned back up, which I'll save for next weekend. For now I just want to bask in the knowledge that it's running. After hundreds of posts it was something seemingly dumb and arbitrary, although the actual reason I started this thread might NOT be resolved. More to come.

Moral: My friend's dad was an old Air Force mechanic during the Korean War. After he retired from the military he had an auto shop until he died about 10 years ago. His advice to us, when we started to tinker, was simple, "If it don't run, think, 'What was the last thing I ****ed with?' and that's probably it." Even something as arbitrary as a fuel pressure gauge (and I'm still not saying definitively that was my problem, but if not it sure is a coincidence that it ran after I removed it).
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post #291 of 302 (permalink) Old 06-04-2017, 03:41 PM
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post #292 of 302 (permalink) Old 06-04-2017, 07:25 PM
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Well how 'bout them apples! Once you moved past the ecu and AFM I got a feeling you were dealing with not one, but multiple problems. Amazing... wish I could have been there.
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post #293 of 302 (permalink) Old 06-05-2017, 12:03 PM Thread Starter
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Man, it was like a cascade of failures. I still don't know why the ignition has to be SO advanced to run though. I'll pump in some 93 octane to help with predetonation so I can at least get it to a specialist who can help diagnose that. I'll get in some more simulated miles int he garage this week, then maybe tool around the neighborhood a bit, then venture out to the mechanic for that work.

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post #294 of 302 (permalink) Old 06-05-2017, 12:47 PM
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Normally, having to advance (or retard) the distributor excessively to get your timing right indicates you are a tooth off on the timing, meaning the drive pulley at the timing belt. In the case of this V6, where you have a drive tang in place of a gear, it tells me the auxiliary drive shaft is just a tad off.

BUT-- in the case of this motor... I could be wrong (and have been!).

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post #295 of 302 (permalink) Old 06-05-2017, 02:08 PM Thread Starter
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I guess I don't get how that could happen. My '82 has 4 marks - M (max advance), PF (cam and static timing) share a mark, and R (full retard at idle). The cams should be timed to the PF mark, and they're RIGHT on it. Both cams, aligning the mark on the shaft with the cap, as well as the crank. Spot on. I pull the retard vacuum line to the diaphragm and it speeds up. I let it more air and it speeds up. I close down the idle and it slows down. I hook up the retard line, rotate the distributor to bring the pin to the correct mark, following the instructions, balance the idle (it's a give and take to get the idle to 900-1000 AND get the mark aligned at R), and it starts to choke and stall.

Maybe it's a mixture issue?

But what if the car just likes the advanced timing? No pinging, no missing, vacuum indicates a healthy motor... Weird, huh? I've read about other cars with the early V6 liking advanced timing too, so maybe it's just one of those quirky Italian idiosyncrasies. Pay no attention to the specs. Does it sound good? Does it drive well? Then leave it alone.

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post #296 of 302 (permalink) Old 06-05-2017, 08:19 PM
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After what you and that car have been through, I think you hit the nail on the head.

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post #297 of 302 (permalink) Old 06-05-2017, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chairmankaga View Post
Wanna know what I did? Aside from reversing the wiring from the distributor? That was causing the total non-start situation. But to solve the start/stall that's been the actual issue for months?

Removed the fuel pressure gauge. I even got my wife to help. I've noted that my fuel pressure had been fine, according the the gauge installed before the rail. I went ahead and pulled out the rail, disabled the coil, and cranked the engine to make sure each injector was firing and/or not sticking open. I'd done this check previously, but after watching several videos on what a healthy injector pattern should look like, I concluded mine looked WEAK. Just on a whim I replaced the gauge with a new segment of FI hose, and the injectors were spraying much more vigorously. I suppose the nipple for the gauge was somehow obstructing fuel flow without spiking the pressure? I noted it was protruding maybe 1/8" through the adapter. Anything is possible I suppose. Butt that's all I did. Removed the gauge, and the car ran.

And it ran the car for a good 15 minutes just now!

I do still have a problem though. I have to run the ignition fairly advanced with a fast idle (1500-ish warm) to keep vacuum up and idle steady. I'd say it's halfway between the P and the M marks. Maybe I just don't have the idle and timing balanced out yet? As jacked up as everything was I assume that's likely.

I did fry my new MSD coil and am using my original one without the ballast resistor. I'm also running a replacement ignition amp, although I'll try the solid state replacement I'd been using before committing to buy an original-style Bosch part. Some wiring needs to be cleaned back up, which I'll save for next weekend. For now I just want to bask in the knowledge that it's running. After hundreds of posts it was something seemingly dumb and arbitrary, although the actual reason I started this thread might NOT be resolved. More to come.

Moral: My friend's dad was an old Air Force mechanic during the Korean War. After he retired from the military he had an auto shop until he died about 10 years ago. His advice to us, when we started to tinker, was simple, "If it don't run, think, 'What was the last thing I ****ed with?' and that's probably it." Even something as arbitrary as a fuel pressure gauge (and I'm still not saying definitively that was my problem, but if not it sure is a coincidence that it ran after I removed it).
Wow, good for you! That is certainly an oddball situation that none of us would have likely guessed . . . . though it makes me question the integrity of your fuel delivery system, whether it be an electrical or a physical restriction.
I would like to see details/pictures of your exact fuel pressure gauge setup---it would take quite a small restriction to obstruct fuel flow to the extent of stalling an engine with no load!

We have at least a half-dozen different fuel pressure gauges at my shop of varying ages and manufacturers; I have used them all on many different types of cars over the years and have never had one cause a restriction or other issue when installed in-line with the fuel inlet, even while test-driving the car and monitoring fuel pressure under load.

Take a breather, hug your family, and get back to us when you can!

Chris

Chris A: '81 GTV6 rescued from junkyard, "GT" car/'86 Porsche 944 Turbo track/street car/'73 BMW 2002tii fun street car/'74 Jensen Healey Lemons Rally car!
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post #298 of 302 (permalink) Old 06-05-2017, 11:29 PM
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Nothing like a happy (ish anyway...) ending. Bet that seems like a weight has lifted from you! This is good news!

'83 GTV6 - 164 12v 3.0 in!
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post #299 of 302 (permalink) Old 06-06-2017, 07:03 AM Thread Starter
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Yeah, I'm residing in just as much disbelief as you regarding the supposed culprit. It doesn't make sense! Maybe there was an additional obstruction in the hose or adapter? Maybe it was some weird principle of hydrodynamics? Maybe I coincidentally leaned the right way over a wiring connector and brought it back to life?

It was utterly bizarre. After GMJohns helped me with the distributor wiring orientation the thing still wouldn't start, which is why I decided to try one last thing before towing it off to a shop - recheck the injectors. I suppose it's also possible there's some debris in the fuel rail and lifting it out and plopping it on its side to check the spray patterns was enough to dislodge it? If the problem comes back I think I'll know where to look.

But the gauge and adapter were straight from Summit. Basic anodized aluminum 5/16" gauge adapter with a 100 psi gauge that just screws in. Like I said, it protrudes into the adapter maybe a 1/4" or so, and maybe that's enough to do whatever it might have done? I could shim it with a nut to back it out a bit.

Anyway, weird. One for the ages. Moral still applies though! "If it don't run, think, 'What was the last thing I ****ed with?' and that's probably it."

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post #300 of 302 (permalink) Old 06-06-2017, 07:58 AM
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Happy to hear that it's running again!! For me the most useful part what the comment that "I even got my wife to help" -- this morning I told my wife that I learned from alfabb that when all else fails, bring in the big guns.
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