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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 04:54 AM Thread Starter
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Spider Concours Class Question

Stay with me on this...it is a honest question......sorry for the length.

When the AROC Convention was held in New Hampshire, I submitted my 93 Spider to judging. I actually did it to see how it would rate and to learn where the "gaps" are in the car's condition. I also participated as a "freshman" judge with Matt Jones from ReOriginals to learn that side of the effort.

This being my first Convention and first Concours event at which I was more than a spectator, I was somewhat dismayed that Series 4 cars were lumped with other years (and vice-versa). My Spider was judged as a "group" against other Series 2&3 Spiders. I was somewhat discouraged. I see from the results of this year's Concours, the same lump of Spiders has occurred (see listing below).

Why? Is it more of an engine/displacement/brakes class distinction than a body style/year distinction? It strikes me as odd that a 72 competes with a 87 that competes with a 91, etc. I can't get past this but I also see it with other Alfa classes.

Sigh....
Rob


Place Name Vehicle Score
Motor City Alfa 2007, AROC National Convention Concours
August 4, 2007, Meadow Brook
Presented by Re-Originals, Black Barts Emporium, and Sports Car Market

Class 10 Spider 1966-1968
1 Steve Schwartz 1968 1750 Spider 99.7
2 Paul Van Bemmelen 1967 Duetto 91.4
3 Bud Bay 1969 1750 Spider 86.1
4 Ed Geller 1969 1750 Spider 85.8
5 Brad Mellor 1967 Duetto 84.1
6 Steve Garrisi 1966 Duetto 80.1
7 Victor Cerami 1966 Duetto 78.2

Class 11 Spider 1970-1994
1 Henry Sershen 1972 Spider 98.8
2 Bill Kennedy 1988 Spider Quadrifoglio 97.8
3 Enrique Zuniga 1984 Spider Veloce 97.8
4 Loyd Heimbruch 1978 Niki Lauda Spider 97.7
5 John Lutsch 1988 Spider Quadrifoglio 96.7
6 Gordon Zimmerman 1991 Spider Veloce 94.2
7 Don Wisniowiecki 1987 Spider Quadrifoglio 91.8
8 Ed Kisscorni 1988 Spider Graduate 91.3
9 Jennifer Gustafson 1989 Spider Veloce 91.1
10 George Beston 1970 Spider Jr 90.8
11 Richard Gondek 1974 Spider 90.1
12 Fred Flynn 1978 Spider 81.9
13 Brewster Thackery 1983 Spider Veloce 79.3
14 David Small 1987 Spider Quadrifoglio 70

********* *********
Rob Favali
2013 Fiat 500C
2007 Saab 93 SportCombi
**1993 Spider Veloce (Sold 2015)**

Last edited by Favali; 08-24-2007 at 04:55 AM. Reason: Typo
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 05:36 AM
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Rob,
How do you think they should be split; by series?
Do you think GTVs and Sedans should be split too? I don't do concours, I'm just curious

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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 06:14 AM
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I must say I don't see the logic either.....Either you judge all S1-S4 in one group, or you judge them all separately, not sure why this split was made this way, but I'm sure someone will chine in

Peter

Currently: '65 Giulia TI

Previously:
'76 Alfasud Ti/'75 GT Junior/'87 Alfa 33
'91 Alfa 75/'95 Alfa 164/'79 Alfa Spider '69 Euro 1750 GTV, '67 Duetto, '84 Spider Veloce
'91 164L
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 06:46 AM
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Hi Rob,

That's actually a great question... I'm going to answer from a very personal perspective, as someone who does enter a car at the National Convention (this is the second year in a row that my Spider has placed 2nd in its class), and who refrains from judging in any category of an event when a personal car is entered.

Classes are formed first based on how closely related the cars are, and second, based on how many cars are entered in the event. (I believe that this long standing criteria is now also documented in the AROC Concours Manual.) From a competitive perspective I think it does make sense. Note that even here, on the BB, we tend to lump the series 2, 3 and 4 Spiders together. As you pointed out, that's what was also done at Detroit, with the series 1 roundtails being in their own category. If enough Spiders of one series are entered, then it would not be unusual for the organizers to further subdivide the original category.

I think it's also important to emphasize that the car is judged against itself. That is, how it is presented at the Concours versus how it was when new. Now, we could say that older cars are simpler and therefore have less of a chance to loose points, but the other side of the argument would be that a newer car is just easier to preserve. I think in general this criteria works, especially because our cars are no longer new. The only time I have found it odd, is when a new car (yes, brand new) is allowed to enter a show, and then is found to be flawless. For example, I think it would be unfair to have an 8C enter an Alfa National Concours, and then have it win the judged category. In that case, it should only be judged in a group of new cars.

What are you specifically dismayed about? Where do you think you're car is at a disadvantage? I can tell you that as a series 3 (and series 2, although I only compete with the series 3) Spider owner I do think that the series 3a ('82 - '85) is the hardest to keep up than all the series, but I'm not really too concerned about being grouped with the other Spiders.

Best regards,

Enrique
[SIZE="1"]Spider 74, 84 & 87
Milano 88 Verde
164 91S, 93L & 95Q[/SIZE]
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 01:02 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zunige View Post
Hi Rob,

I think it's also important to emphasize that the car is judged against itself. That is, how it is presented at the Concours versus how it was when new.
I would say this is the core of the issue. Judged against itself. But one might suggest it appears as the classes promote a judgment against others in the same class. I cannot say I remember what occurred when I worked with Matt at the New Hampshire show. That is, were we focused on each car unto itself? Dunno....but this would help cure my concern.

My dismay is that I still do not like Spiders lumped into one group save a select breed of boat tails. One might suggest, when we got our tails cut off, something in the breed happened.......

I guess in my fantasy Alfa world, we would see sufficent cars for each group at every Convention to warrant judging by car type (as in, GTV's alone; Montreals alone, Series 1, 2, etc). Now we see transaxles, sedans, Spiders, and so on. Such is this old man's fantasy.......

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2007 Saab 93 SportCombi
**1993 Spider Veloce (Sold 2015)**
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 01:53 PM
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Why are you lumping GTVs together but splitting Spiders? A step nose is different from a series 1 1750, is different from a 2000
Since it should really be all about the score, why not judge them all together?
I guess I really don't understand Spiders or is it concours?

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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 02:59 PM
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Let me chime in here since I wrote the National Concours Manual for AROC. The class breakdown for the National Concours was not in accordance with the National Concours Manual, not just for the Spiders but in some other instances also. By the time I saw how the classes were split up by the local event organizers when I got to Detroit it was too late to change them since it would have affected the awards, the field signage and a whole bunch of other things.

If you look in Chapter 2 of the Concours Manual, you will see that technically there are 25 prescribed classes for the concours. Of these, the 105/115 Spiders should be broken into 4 separate classes as follows: Class 15 for 1966-69 Roundtail Spiders; Class 17 for 1970-81 105/115 Spiders; Class 18 for 1982-90 115 Spiders; and finally Class 19 for the Series 4 cars. The local organizers decided to lump three of the classes together given the entries that they received. In fairness to them, people showed up with different cars than they entered in some cases (in various classes), so one class that was supposed to have 18 cars ended up with 6, and the 105/115 Spider Class ballooned out.

I will be working closely with the Chicago folks to make sure that they follow the class guidelines more closely. You may have to combine classes in some cases due to the limited number of cars present, but in general you don't lump coupes and Spiders together as an example.

The National Concours Manual is available for download on the AROC-USA website at http://www.aroc-usa.org/community/Co...Manual2004.pdf.

Arno Leskinen
AROC-USA National Concours Chair
102
115
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 04:39 PM Thread Starter
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Ken,
My lumping only points to my ignorance of GTV's. It also points to the fact that I should sell the Audi's and buy Alfas......but how good are they in Vermont snow and carrying my skis every week to the mountains......??

Arno's points are well taken and satisfying. We spoke on this in New Hampshire and via email after the meetings. It seems that the lack of participation in the Concours results in combined classes for selected vehicles. A personal thank you to Arno for your efforts.

I take great care of my Spider and apart from Koni's, a stereo, and a previous owner paint job, the car is as original as I can make it. Now if I can convince myself to drive it to Chicago next year, this old man's fantasy might be somewhat assuaged (not that I want to compete with Enrique!)

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Rob Favali
2013 Fiat 500C
2007 Saab 93 SportCombi
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 06:15 PM
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..Now if I can convince myself to drive it to Chicago next year, this old man's fantasy might be somewhat assuaged (not that I want to compete with Enrique!)
I sure hope you'll join us, Rob! It's much more fun to clean your car among other people than by yourself. Besides, after cleaning it for the national event, I can assure you that your cleanings will be much easier for the rest of the year! Just don't do what I did - place a great sticker on the windshield and then have one heck of time trying to remove the goo the night before the concours! It was for a good cause, though: my dream of placing my Spider on the track and test her prowess came true.

Best regards,

Enrique
[SIZE="1"]Spider 74, 84 & 87
Milano 88 Verde
164 91S, 93L & 95Q[/SIZE]
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-24-2007, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Zunige View Post
I sure hope you'll join us, Rob! It's much more fun to clean your car among other people than by yourself. Besides, after cleaning it for the national event, I can assure you that your cleanings will be much easier for the rest of the year! Just don't do what I did - place a great sticker on the windshield and then have one heck of time trying to remove the goo the night before the concours! It was for a good cause, though: my dream of placing my Spider on the track and test her prowess came true.

Best regards,
I've got to say, I'm more of a track guy, but I was amazed at the level of work you guys put in to prepping your cars for display.

I stopped by to borrow a set of ramps from Enrique to help Andrew Garcia fix Bernies radiator hose, and mentioned I'd bring them back in an hour or so. Enriques response - I'll be gone at least 6 hours! Holy smokes!

Did the radiator hose (horrible job!), took a shower, had a nap, went to dinner, then off for the late night stroll of the parking lot, and Enrique was STILL THERE, scraping away at the glass!

My hats off to you, especially having driven to the convention, and run in the competition events. Well done!

Rob, by all means, come to Chicago!

Hey, do you guys think you could help me wash *my* Spider? I cleaned it up for the 2004 convention, so it should be ready for another scrubbing in Chicago..

bs
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post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old 08-26-2007, 09:55 PM
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I've got to say, I'm more of a track guy, but I was amazed at the level of work you guys put in to prepping your cars for display.

I stopped by to borrow a set of ramps from Enrique to help Andrew Garcia fix Bernies radiator hose, and mentioned I'd bring them back in an hour or so. Enriques response - I'll be gone at least 6 hours! Holy smokes!

Did the radiator hose (horrible job!), took a shower, had a nap, went to dinner, then off for the late night stroll of the parking lot, and Enrique was STILL THERE, scraping away at the glass!

My hats off to you, especially having driven to the convention, and run in the competition events. Well done!

Rob, by all means, come to Chicago!

Hey, do you guys think you could help me wash *my* Spider? I cleaned it up for the 2004 convention, so it should be ready for another scrubbing in Chicago..

bs
Thanks for nice comments, Brian... What's really cool is that we all simply learn from each other. When I saw your Spider's roll bar and you said that it could be installed and removed in 10 mins., it gave me a great incentive to get one made!

Running the car to and from the track on the dirt road really got it much dirtier than I had anticipated. Once I saw how it looked, I could tell it was going to need a full cleaning to get it concours ready. During those six hours I cleaned the wheels (front and back, since they were off the car), the wheel wells, the engine bay, the body, the interior, the top and the goo of the windshield. (Of course that's the last time I put on one of those stickers and leave it on for three days. .) Next year bring your car over to the car wash, and I'll bet you that you will be really happy with the result. No need to go to the level that we do for the concours, but enough to make you think that you've got a new car again.

Best regards,

Enrique
[SIZE="1"]Spider 74, 84 & 87
Milano 88 Verde
164 91S, 93L & 95Q[/SIZE]
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