Rollcages - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 12:54 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
geh458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Los Lunas, NM
Posts: 2,517
Rollcages

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don LaVance View Post
I agree. "Nuff" about Sump Guards. Shall we talk about the various types, pros and cons of a roll bar. Pre-assembled or custom. Are there any that do not clutter up the view of the CHP in the rear view mirror?
Ok Don, just for you I started this thread. The pic's below are of the Sparco Cage in my '72 Super street racer. It doesn't block the rearward view, and it's hardly noticeable from the outside, and you can't even see the front section of the cage. It's a direct bolt-in for the super, but it's also welded in for a little extra support, plus it came with enough extra tubing to do door bars if I decide to later. I'll post an interior shot or two later. I've seen a Super roll without a cage, the driver was ok, but it smashed the top pretty good. Hopefully I'll never try it out, but it does add a lot of safety, and it stiffened up the car quit a bit.
Attached Images
    

Gifford
'72 Super --> SOLD, '67 GTV --> SOLD

Last edited by geh458; 12-19-2008 at 12:59 PM.
geh458 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 01:46 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Newark, California
Posts: 72
Send a message via AIM to Donald R.
Nice looking sedan Gifford. Thank's for starting the new thread.
I would like to obtain some information on one for a spider.
The only one that I have seen available to order and install for a Spider included the wording, "Will look great while giving you a feeling of security." My location is N. Cal. I would like to have one that provides more than the "feeling" of security. If I'm going to spend $500 or so I would like to have one that I would physically be able to repaint if I had the need to use it.

The Graduate
Donald R. is offline  
post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 02:35 PM
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by geh458 View Post
Ok Don, just for you I started this thread. The pic's below are of the Sparco Cage in my '72 Super street racer. It doesn't block the rearward view, and it's hardly noticeable from the outside, and you can't even see the front section of the cage. It's a direct bolt-in for the super, but it's also welded in for a little extra support, plus it came with enough extra tubing to do door bars if I decide to later. I'll post an interior shot or two later. I've seen a Super roll without a cage, the driver was ok, but it smashed the top pretty good. Hopefully I'll never try it out, but it does add a lot of safety, and it stiffened up the car quit a bit.
Great looking Super, but bars and rollcages can be very fatal in a streetcar
as your not protected by a helmet. I would make sure I kept my 5-point tight,
and make sure your skull cannot come into contact with the bar in a shunt.
In the old days we thought a little padding would protect us. ... It will, if you hit your head climbing into the seat only.

Have fun and be safe.
Cheers, Don
GTA # 14 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
geh458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Los Lunas, NM
Posts: 2,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTA # 14 View Post
Great looking Super, but bars and rollcages can be very fatal in a streetcar
as your not protected by a helmet. I would make sure I kept my 5-point tight,
and make sure your skull cannot come into contact with the bar in a shunt.
In the old days we thought a little padding would protect us. ... It will, if you hit your head climbing into the seat only.

Have fun and be safe.
Cheers, Don
Don,

I thought about that. When I'm in a comfortable position in the seat, my head is no where near any of the bars, the '67 GTV seats I installed are about 3.5" lower than the original issue Super seats. And padding is on the TO DO list for the main hoop, the bars above the doors, and the front down tubes. I also thought about carrying a couple of half-helmets (or bicycle helmets) in the car just in case some spirited driving presents itself when I'm out and about.

Gifford
'72 Super --> SOLD, '67 GTV --> SOLD
geh458 is offline  
post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 03:47 PM
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by geh458 View Post
Don,

I thought about that. When I'm in a comfortable position in the seat, my head is no where near any of the bars, the '67 GTV seats I installed are about 3.5" lower than the original issue Super seats. And padding is on the TO DO list for the main hoop, the bars above the doors, and the front down tubes. I also thought about carrying a couple of half-helmets (or bicycle helmets) in the car just in case some spirited driving presents itself when I'm out and about.
Hi Gillford, Thank's for your flame-free reply, I always cringe when I throw out...'' well trust me'' type free advice. I've been building caged race cars for over 30 years (yes I'm old) One thing I've learned is:the ''Science" I used in 70's is a joke by today's racecar standards.
Have a Great Holiday,
Cheers,

Last edited by GTA # 14; 12-20-2008 at 10:22 AM.
GTA # 14 is offline  
post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 04:13 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Newark, California
Posts: 72
Send a message via AIM to Donald R.
Don,
Have you ever built a simple roll bar for a Spider that would allow full use of the top and have cross bracing. I am looking for 1020 cold rolled steel 1 3/4 diam and 0.120 wall.
This is the sum of the specs that I have been able to collect for a true working roll bar.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thank's,

The Graduate

Last edited by Donald R.; 12-19-2008 at 04:17 PM.
Donald R. is offline  
post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 06:29 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
geh458's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Los Lunas, NM
Posts: 2,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don LaVance View Post
Don,
Have you ever built a simple roll bar for a Spider that would allow full use of the top and have cross bracing. I am looking for 1020 cold rolled steel 1 3/4 diam and 0.120 wall.
This is the sum of the specs that I have been able to collect for a true working roll bar.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thank's,
Don,

Please remember that for a roll bar to be of any use, your head must be below the top of the bar, at least 2" in some of racing organization rules. On a spider this would probably eliminate the use of the top without modifications to it. There is a member of this BB that has made such mods to his top, but I can't recall his name. If you search through some of the track event photos in the threads in the AROSC Regional Forum, you should be to find a picture.

Also, I did a search in the Spider Forum, and found these threads that might be helpful in your quest: Spider Roll Bars

Gifford
'72 Super --> SOLD, '67 GTV --> SOLD

Last edited by geh458; 12-19-2008 at 06:39 PM.
geh458 is offline  
post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 06:43 PM
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don LaVance View Post
Don,
Have you ever built a simple roll bar for a Spider that would allow full use of the top and have cross bracing. I am looking for 1020 cold rolled steel 1 3/4 diam and 0.120 wall.
This is the sum of the specs that I have been able to collect for a true working roll bar.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thank's,
Don, I'm sorry to say I have never built safety parts for a street car, but I'm sure there are others on the BB that could help you. My background was with
Ferrari, Ford and Lotus.
Cheers, Don
GTA # 14 is offline  
post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-20-2008, 07:21 AM
Registered User
 
genericwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,789
I rolled my first car, a Fiat 850 Spider, and still have the scars on my head from contacting the roll bar. On the other hand, I'm guessing I would have been worse off slamming the top of my head into the pavement. I had a strong neck in those days, but not THAT strong!

MSIERT has a roll bar in his Series 4 Spider that works with the convertible top. I believe he details its' construction in the MSIERTS BLACK SPIDER thread (in the Spider section).

Erik
genericwood is offline  
post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-20-2008, 10:05 AM
Registered User
 
Zunige's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Nutley/NJ & Middletown/OH, USA
Posts: 6,087
Don,

Installing a functional roll bar in a Spider is far more complex than it seems, but it is certainly achievable. First, you need to determine if you plan on using this for street safety, or track safety. Plain and simple, a track legal roll bar is impractical for the street, and there is no design that meets track requirements and fits underneath the car’s top, with a stock seat configuration. (This holds true even for Murray’s, aka “msiert”, roll bar.) A bar that doesn’t meet track requirements, but could support the weight of the car presents a whole set of additional issues. Of course, anything can be fabricated.

There have been various roll bar designs offered for our Spiders over the years, but today, the usual USA vendors have reduced these and only offer two designs: the “street” or “show” bar that offers no rollover protection, and the Autopower competition bar which requires removal of the Spider’s top frame.

An off the shelf “show” bar can be reinforced to withstand a rollover, but you will have to ensure that it does not present any danger to the occupants, as their heads could come in contact with the bar. (Impacting the bar would more than likely kill the person.) Dealing with the comfort concerns, since the “show” bars limit seat travel and seat recline is another issue. Last, but most important, the Spider rear deck, behind the seats, is inadequate to support a functional roll bar. The rear deck has a “double” floor, and any mounting design must take this into account in order for a bar to be properly secured.

The commercially available Autopower roll bar is for a dedicated race car, and its mounting points require that the entire top and even the top frame be removed, so it is not even an option for most of us. At one point, Autopower made a track legal bar that could be mounted to the rear deck, but they discontinued that years ago. Thus, for those of us who want to place a street Spider on the track, the only option left is to have a roll bar custom made. And that’s what we’ve done.

A track legal roll bar requires that the bar be above the driver’s helmet. With a stock seat, and a roll bar that allows the top to go over it, this requirement is impossible to meet, unless the driver’s torso is abnormally short. Thus, either the bar is made taller and the top won’t fit, or the seat track arrangement is modified and different seats are used. Murray’s bar does fit under the top, but he swaps out his stock seats for different seats when he goes on the track, and the arrangement is way too uncomfortable for any type of extended driving. Other people with bars that allow the top to go up remove the seat cushion when they go on track events, but this may or may not provide the proper clearance. Others with a bar that doesn’t allow the top to go up simply fit the bar when they go to track events.

As I said, you will find that many of us have come up with a solution that works for whatever our purpose is, and you can certainly learn from what we’ve done. Be prepared however, for a pricey endeavor, unless you bend pipe, weld pieces to it, and also can cut and weld your Spider.

You will find specs and a description of what the Alfa Romeo Owner’s Club considers a safe track bar in the AROC-USA Competition Code. This is the link: http://www.aroc-usa.org/library/docu...deJuly2007.pdf

Below are some pictures of the bar that I use. It doesn’t allow the top to go up, and I only use it for Time Trials. It takes 16 bolts to secure it to the car.

Name:  Spider roll bar 001.jpg
Views: 785
Size:  52.1 KB

Name:  Spider roll bar 003.jpg
Views: 737
Size:  64.8 KB

Name:  Spider roll bar 006.jpg
Views: 873
Size:  127.5 KB

Name:  Spider roll bar 008.jpg
Views: 665
Size:  143.4 KB

Best regards,

Enrique
[SIZE="1"]Spider 74, 84 & 87
Milano 88 Verde
164 91S, 93L & 95Q[/SIZE]
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[SIZE="1"][I][COLOR="Green"]Member of the Alfa Romeo Owners Club USA[/COLOR][/I][/SIZE]
[B][FONT="Verdana"][RIGHT]DARKSIDE MEMBER[/RIGHT][/FONT][/B]
Zunige is offline  
post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-20-2008, 10:27 AM
Registered User
 
Bruce Colby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vista, CA
Posts: 913
Sparco Roll Bars/Cages

I noticed in Giff's photos that the main hoop diagonal brace runs from above the passenger's head down to somewhere behind the driver. That design provides more protection for the passenger than the driver. I believe Sparco say the bar is FIA certified. I don't think they say when it was certified or what the certification consists of but I could be wrong. Anyway, Spacro is a British company and in the UK is a land of right hand drive cars. I suspect that may explain why the diagonal is where it is. For left hand drive cars, the brace would be better placed if it ran from above the drivers head down to opposite side.

Bruce Colby - Street = '69 1750 GTV/TS; Track = '65 SGT/TS, '89 E30, '72 914/6
gone to new homes
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- '71 Jr. Z, '69 1750 Spider, '62 Spider
Bruce Colby is offline  
post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-20-2008, 11:22 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Newark, California
Posts: 72
Send a message via AIM to Donald R.
WOW. What a great response.
Thank you Enrique. That gives me a lot to consider.
Nice looking piece you made there, thanks for the photos and sharing.

The Graduate
Donald R. is offline  
post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-20-2008, 12:46 PM
Registered User
 
Alfapwr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Stevenson Ranch, CA
Posts: 642
I also have the Sparco cage in my super. I added a diagonal brace to triangulate the main hoop fron near the top left to the bottom right of the MAIN hoop. The cage does come with a BOLT-IN brace from the top right of the main hoop to the bottom of the left rear brace. I'm assuming it meets the Appendix K regs since a certification label came with it to attach after painting.

By the way, Bruce - Sparco is an Italian company and not British !

Dan

Dan Walker, Stevenson Ranch CA
67 Duetto, 93 Spec Miata
Alfapwr is offline  
post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-20-2008, 05:36 PM
Registered User
 
Bruce Colby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vista, CA
Posts: 913
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfapwr View Post
By the way, Bruce - Sparco is an Italian company and not British !

Dan
Bummer! I thought I had a handle on why the cross brace was wonky. It makes sense for RHD. I wonder what kind of reasoning an Italian Co. would use to put it that way.

Bruce Colby - Street = '69 1750 GTV/TS; Track = '65 SGT/TS, '89 E30, '72 914/6
gone to new homes
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
- '71 Jr. Z, '69 1750 Spider, '62 Spider
Bruce Colby is offline  
post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 12-21-2008, 01:30 AM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 6,681
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Colby View Post
Bummer! I thought I had a handle on why the cross brace was wonky. It makes sense for RHD. I wonder what kind of reasoning an Italian Co. would use to put it that way.
The reason is because the cages were originally meant of the UK market. Pretty much all of their cages are set up for RHD. They haven't made a LHD version yet, because they are lazy Italians. When I worked for Sparco, I begged the main office to have some available for my LHD customers, but never got lucky with my requests. Easy way to fix it is to cut it off and re-weld it going the other way.
italcarguy is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome