Wanted 105 Nord Engine Cam Pedestal #1 (or #6) - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-19-2016, 11:31 AM Thread Starter
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105 Nord Engine Cam Pedestal #1 (or #6)

Hey guys and gals.

I'm currently rebuilding a '71 GTV with a 2000 Nord engine in it but while putting the cams back in after doing the head I noticed #1 cam pedestal was scored to the point of being unusable thanks to the previous owner. New cams so the cam side is not an issue.

So now I need a #1 cam pedestal. I've phoned around a few Alfa places in the UK but no one has one. Same pedestals on all Nord engines of that time as far as I know (not sure if the 1750 was different than the 2000 on the pedestals).

I can also use a #6 if anyone has one, as #1 and #6 are more or less identical. I can't use #2, #3, #4 or #5 as they don't have the proper cut-out to contain that part of the front of the cam. I'm in the UK but something that small should not be very expensive to send from outside the country.

Please help, can't get the car running until I have one.
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-19-2016, 12:58 PM
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I probably have one, but I won't be able to get to that storage for several days. I hope you know that this will not be a bolt-on replacement.

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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-19-2016, 01:56 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex View Post
I hope you know that this will not be a bolt-on replacement.
How so? I assumed they're all the same, as long as it's #1?

I've rebuilt around five of these engines now and the cam pedestals all appear completely identical between all the engines. As long as it's not heavily worn of course. I understand they wear with their respective cams but that wear should not be excessive nor mean you can't swap them out, otherwise you'd have to change them all every time you put new/reground/hotter cams in.
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-19-2016, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeUK View Post
How so? I assumed they're all the same, as long as it's #1?

Every one will be a little different....These caps are line borded when the head is made thus the #'s so you won't mix them up.
Theoretically caps from one engine should/will not fit another ...much like bearing caps.

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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-20-2016, 03:27 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARwrench View Post
Every one will be a little different....These caps are line boarded when the head is made thus the #'s so you won't mix them up.
Theoretically caps from one engine should/will not fit another ...much like bearing caps.
Argh.. that's not what I'd hoped.

What are my options then? I've already paid out quite a lot on this head already. Had it flowed and ported. Surely it doesn't mean an entirely new head?
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-20-2016, 05:23 AM
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You have two options.

1) replace the cap and have the journals align bored
2) replace the cylinder head

I would talk to an Alfa expert on your side of the pond about the align boring and how that will or won't affect the other journals. The folks at Alfaholics and Classic Alfa seem to be quite knowledgeable and could offer advice.

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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-20-2016, 06:24 AM
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Cam caps

Actually they are not significantly different, as far as making one fit,

In particular the #1 cam journal/cap assembly tends to wear down into the head more than all the others due to chain tension/pull.

Note however the #1 caps are marked with different timing marks based on the model of engine it is originally assembled into. You need a cap from the same model.
I would expect that another cap would fit but you will need to check clearance.

If you install one and the cam is very easy to turn (no increase over the tension from the other caps)then you can reduce clearance minutely by removing the centering sleeves and lightly sanding the base to remove some metal and refit . Do this until you feel minor resistance to turning added to the cam`s normal resistance from the other two journals.
Clearance for the cap assembly is barely over .001 so the cam will have some resistance.

If it is tight, you need to locate the misalignment by using machinist dye and working that area with a pice of sand paper around your finger.

I have a box full of old caps from trashed heads, and if you will tell me what the LC on that cap should be I`ll send you one. (Or what year model)

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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-20-2016, 06:26 AM
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Wow, that's great news. I learned something new today. Thanks RJ!

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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-20-2016, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfar7 View Post
Actually they are not significantly different, as far as making one fit,

In particular the #1 cam journal/cap assembly tends to wear down into the head more than all the others due to chain tension/pull.

Note however the #1 caps are marked with different timing marks based on the model of engine it is originally assembled into. You need a cap from the same model.
I would expect that another cap would fit but you will need to check clearance.

If you install one and the cam is very easy to turn (no increase over the tension from the other caps)then you can reduce clearance minutely by removing the centering sleeves and lightly sanding the base to remove some metal and refit . Do this until you feel minor resistance to turning added to the cam`s normal resistance from the other two journals.
Clearance for the cap assembly is barely over .001 so the cam will have some resistance.

If it is tight, you need to locate the misalignment by using machinist dye and working that area with a piece of sand paper around your finger.

I have a box full of old caps from trashed heads, and if you will tell me what the LC on that cap should be I`ll send you one. (Or what year model)
While Richard didn't say it, he meant to mention that the fitting and rotating needs to be done with valves out so that you can feel the resistance. You may want to have a machinist do the work for you. And maybe not who ever did the head work as maybe they should have noticed the problem on a pre work inspection.

But before you do all that maybe you should post some pictures of the damage here for another opinion and check clearance and ease of turning .

FWIW

Ken

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Last edited by kengta; 04-20-2016 at 11:35 AM.
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-20-2016, 08:33 AM
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Hi, you blamed this issue on the PO but failed to say what he did.

It occurs to me that cam bearing problems might occur on a warped head especially one that has been cut back flat rather than un-warping it with a plate and heat to stress relieve.

A cut back flat head would likely leave the cam bearings out of alignment.

FWIW

Ken

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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-20-2016, 09:55 AM
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You can also use a "lobeless" ground cam with perfect bearing journals for testing without head disassembly. With a pair of lobless cams, and plugs out, you can check a head on an assembled engine in a car. I don't think I've ever spun an engine on the starter with my lobless cams installed. I'm not that brave.
From my experience.


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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-20-2016, 06:03 PM
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Checking bcam bearing clearance

Quote:
While Richard didn't say it, he meant to mention that the fitting and rotating needs to be done with valves out so that you can feel the resistance. You may want to have a machinist do the work for you. And maybe not who ever did the head work as maybe they should have noticed the problem on a pre work inspection.

But before you do all that maybe you should post some pictures of the damage here for another opinion and check clearance and ease of turning .


Actually all you have to do is split the chain and turn the crank/pistons about 20 degrees to get #1  about .5 inch below TDC then you can turn the cam without interference. Even with big cam lobes.
Just be sure intake cam is at its LC mark while turning the exh and vice-versa. This will prevent valve to valve contact.

My cam journal cutter is made from a cam with the lobes ground off and the valve area ground to a 1.060 BC full circle for setting up valve depth initially. The bearing journals are cut to ream the bearing surfaces to correct mis-alignment.

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-16-2016, 04:00 AM Thread Starter
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Many apologies for not replying sooner! I've been relying on mobile internet after moving house (which ran out almost a month ago) and my landline provider screwed up installing the line. Never rains but it pours, it seems.

Thank you so much for the above information guys, I love AlfaBB because everyone here is ridiculously helpful!

Richard, it's a 2000 engine in an early 1750 GTV coupe (yes, I know, sacrilege). It originally came from South Africa and was registered long after importing so the year on the V5 is incorrect, I believe it's a 1969 car as it has the earlier drop links on the suspension but obviously the engine is a few years later. I didn't perform the engine swap, that's just how I found it (buried underneath a ton of crap in an old mans garage). It's repainted, repaired, re-trimmed and ready to go back on the road if not for the cam pedestal issue.

Ken, the damage was indeed from a warped head. However I had it checked and it was salvageable. The company I used to work the head is not an Alfa specialist so I don't blame him too much for missing the cam pedestal damage, he did a wonderful job on the head itself though and it's nice and flat now. Thankfully the block was undamaged. The PO must have run a hell of a lot of heat through it, likely running it hot/lean and "ragging it" from cold. I had to completely rebuild the gearbox, every synchromesh was mashed to hell and back.
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