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post #1 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-04-2019, 02:05 AM Thread Starter
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Tyres

Hi

What tyres are you guys fitting?

Did you know about these https://www.longstonegomme.it/pneu/2...rato-cn36.html

How many Montreals are still on the road?

How many are now fitting 15 or 16 inch wheels?
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post #2 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-04-2019, 05:36 AM
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Hi Dougal,

My car sports a set of 195/70 14, P-4000's.

I've seen the 205/70 14 CN 36 tires you have available and on sale. I am curious; would you recommend them over the Michelin XWX or are they both equally good? The Vredestein 195/70 14 tire appears to be the only tire available in the original factory size. Our cars tend to have weak Burman steering boxes that are prone to crack. I have read that wider tires may aggravate this condition.

A Montreal buddy, occasionally on here -TeeJ, bought a set of the Vredestein tires and the full Alfaholics suspension and brake kit for his Montreal. He was not impressed with the handling characteristics of the Vredestein tires. To me they look a bit old fashioned. Honestly the XWX's look old fashioned, in your pictures as well but that is what came in my spare tire well. I suspect it may be original to the car.

I noticed in the "History of the Montreal" The classic Alfa Romeo Montreal featured a V8, which was very similar to the one found in the Alfa Romeo type 33 and a top speed of 130mph. The chassis was from the classic Alfa romeo 1750, the Alfa Romeo Montreal also possesed a 5 speed gearbox and ventilated disc brakes, which it needed to stop the roaring V8." Usually the top speed quoted is "over 137 mph".

Regarding your question "how many Montreal are still on the road?" I suspect that in a couple hours, I may be one of very few out there driving today.

Mark
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post #3 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-04-2019, 01:55 PM
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G'day Dougal

Did you know that Dunlop now make a tyre specifically for classic cars? They are the only manufacturer currently producing a 14" performance tyre. To get the exact same rolling diameter on a performance tyre in any other brand you will need to go to a 17" wheel - I don't think that would look too good on a Montreal. Also, Mark is right. It would put more stress on the steering box. Apart from that, 195mm width is hard enough to turn in the carpark as it is!

Cheers
Rob

Sport Classic
DUNLOP SPORT CLASSIC
Dunlop, one of the world’s leading brands for High and Ultra-High Performance tyres, announces the launch of its new Dunlop Sport Classic, meeting the needs of classic car drivers and optimized for the High Performance vehicles of the ‘60s, ‘70s and ‘80s.
The Dunlop Sport Classic is the latest in a long line of tyres that allow classic car drivers to rely on Dunlop’s strong heritage.
* Note: Porsche O.E. homologated rim widths.
SIZE SERVICE DESCRIPTION OD WIDTH RIMS FITMENT

195/70R14 91V 629 201 5.0-6.5 Alfa Romeo Montreal; BMW 2,5-3,3L; Chevrolet; Ford USA; Glas 2600; MB /8, W 123;, Pagode W113, Opel Commodore, Monza, Senator; Rover Vitesse, 3500; Ferrari Dino front axle
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post #4 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-05-2019, 11:01 AM
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I am saving up to get a set of the Michelin XWX tires in a 205 X70X14 size. That is my preference over the Pirelli's - personal taste. The XWX has the same look from the 1970's and the 205 is only 1/2 inch wider and looks the best in my opinion. They are expensive, hence the comment at the start of this thread about "saving up"!!!
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post #5 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-05-2019, 01:14 PM
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Depending on what the car will be used for.
If the intention is to drive to Meetings and Exhibitions of old cars a time correct tire is a winner. However if the car will mostly be for recreational driving trips along todays roads i would forget all about 30-40 years old tire patterns and buy modern tires.

There has been a lot of development of tires in all those years. Modern tires brake better, lesser noise, better water draining and more comfortable, like not so sensitive of steering feedback. So its nostalgy over modern day quality.

Its not so that only one tire brand is the best, so of the modern tires you should look for the best from Michelin, Continental and Bridgestone, they are the test winners these days. If going cheap there are a lot of other offers too, but why have such a nice Montreal with cheap tires?

Here a Montreal which has more than 14" wheels! And I like it!
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Last edited by Gabor K.; 10-05-2019 at 01:18 PM.
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post #6 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-07-2019, 06:47 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by IRONBLOCK View Post
Hi Dougal,

My car sports a set of 195/70 14, P-4000's.

I've seen the 205/70 14 CN 36 tires you have available and on sale. I am curious; would you recommend them over the Michelin XWX or are they both equally good? The Vredestein 195/70 14 tire appears to be the only tire available in the original factory size. Our cars tend to have weak Burman steering boxes that are prone to crack. I have read that wider tires may aggravate this condition.

A Montreal buddy, occasionally on here -TeeJ, bought a set of the Vredestein tires and the full Alfaholics suspension and brake kit for his Montreal. He was not impressed with the handling characteristics of the Vredestein tires. To me they look a bit old fashioned. Honestly the XWX's look old fashioned, in your pictures as well but that is what came in my spare tire well. I suspect it may be original to the car.

I noticed in the "History of the Montreal" The classic Alfa Romeo Montreal featured a V8, which was very similar to the one found in the Alfa Romeo type 33 and a top speed of 130mph. The chassis was from the classic Alfa romeo 1750, the Alfa Romeo Montreal also possesed a 5 speed gearbox and ventilated disc brakes, which it needed to stop the roaring V8." Usually the top speed quoted is "over 137 mph".

Regarding your question "how many Montreal are still on the road?" I suspect that in a couple hours, I may be one of very few out there driving today.

Mark
I'm also am not a fan of the Vredestein. among other things they look completely modern, and aren't a proper period tyre like the Cinturato. I have driven a Spider on them and didn't like them we fitted XAS on that car. https://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/cla...s4.html#page=1 it was miiles better. HJad i done it again i would probably have gone for the 65HR114 Cinturato that Pirelli now make. The XAS is great, but i would just want a Pirelli on an Alfa.

The difference between modern tyres like the Vredestein or theis new Dunlop compared to proper classic car tyres like the XWX and the CN36 is they consider the proper carcass design so these tyres are suited to classic cars propgressive handling with their rounded carcass design. Modern tyres are designed to put more rubber on the road, because modern car design can compliment that but old cars need rounded carcasses. So i would rather drive on a 205/70VR14 Cintuurato CN36 https://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/cla...rato-cn36.html or a 205/70VR14 XWX https://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/cla...helin-xwx.html than a modern 195/70R14 tyre that someone has taken the initiative to write the word classsic on the side of.
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post #7 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-07-2019, 07:16 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Gabor K. View Post
Depending on what the car will be used for.
If the intention is to drive to Meetings and Exhibitions of old cars a time correct tire is a winner. However if the car will mostly be for recreational driving trips along todays roads i would forget all about 30-40 years old tire patterns and buy modern tires.

There has been a lot of development of tires in all those years. Modern tires brake better, lesser noise, better water draining and more comfortable, like not so sensitive of steering feedback. So its nostalgy over modern day quality.
The car and the tyre have been developed together. the tyre has developed to take advantages of modern car design. So a modern tyre does not work as well on an old car, as a proper classic car tyre.

modern tyre tread design does contribute towards the movement of water. However compound is also very important. The Pirelli Cinturato CN36 and XWX are made using modern compounds, that move water far better than tyhey did in the day. part of what makes a classic tyre cacass better for a Classic car is it's rounded shoulders, which also helps move water.

Driving on a classsic tyre will make the car handle better. using a modern tyre will mean itr grips then lets go, rather than progressively.

Regardless of usage a proper period tyre is better. Horses for courses.

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Originally Posted by Gabor K. View Post
Its not so that only one tire brand is the best, so of the modern tires you should look for the best from Michelin, Continental and Bridgestone, they are the test winners these days. If going cheap there are a lot of other offers too, but why have such a nice Montreal with cheap tires?
Don't forget Pirelli as a premium brand.

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Here a Montreal which has more than 14" wheels! And I like it!
Now here is where we completely agree.
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post #8 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-07-2019, 09:20 AM
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The car and the tyre have been developed together. the tyre has developed to take advantages of modern car design. So a modern tyre does not work as well on an old car, as a proper classic car tyre.

modern tyre tread design does contribute towards the movement of water. However compound is also very important. The Pirelli Cinturato CN36 and XWX are made using modern compounds, that move water far better than tyhey did in the day. part of what makes a classic tyre cacass better for a Classic car is it's rounded shoulders, which also helps move water.

Driving on a classsic tyre will make the car handle better. using a modern tyre will mean itr grips then lets go, rather than progressively.

Regardless of usage a proper period tyre is better. Horses for courses. .


I completely disagree there, an old car with 1 class suspension will only gain from modern tires! The old tires are like rolling sausages in comparison to modern low profile tires. Handling becomes much sharper and more precise with modern tires, in addition with better braking and water draining.

I have a 38 years old car and it has only got the newest generation tires as time went by. Now it got present day tire and it handles better than ever before! New wheels 2 inches bigger and new modern tires. So I have no reason to look at 38 year old pattern copies! If I want to go nostalgic I put on another set of wheels with original size and old tires - no competition from that set at all
So old tire patterns for specially interested, not for best handling! But good luck with the promotion!

Good to hear you like the white Montreal with bigger wheels after all.
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post #9 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-07-2019, 11:56 AM
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Handling becomes much sharper and more precise with modern tires, in addition with better braking and water draining.
It depends on your definition of handling. The total grip and wet weather performance will be higher with a modern radial, but for all around driving, the reproduction CN36's are good tires that, on a vintage car, work better on most road conditions than a modern radial. The steering is lighter and more informative, they turn in nicely and don't tramline as much as modern rubber. For street use, I am not going back to modern tires on my vintage cars.
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post #10 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-07-2019, 12:01 PM
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Dougal and I have debated this subject for years. I personally dislike the use of the term "better", as it is an undefined term. It is often used by sales people to encourage the purchase of their products, but what is really "better"?

When I was operating the 16" Pirelli P4s on my 2000 Touring, in comparison to my current CA67 Pirelli 165-400s, they generated much more turning force, shorter stopping distances, greater stability in high speed highway touring, vastly more predictable handling in the wet, and totally linear behavior when changing from high-speed, straight ahead into decreasing radius turns.

The current CA67s offer a softer ride, and lower turning force required when parking. There are NO OTHER positives for the CA67s. In fact, I consider the CA67s to be somewhat dangerous when used in downhill, high speed turns, such as descending from Lake Tahoe. Of course, the danger is created by driving beyond the capabilities of the tires, but it points out that a modern tire is "better" in many circumstances than the tire originally designed with the old suspension.

However, since 90% of my driving is around town at low speeds, I am happy to drive on the CA67s for now.

Don P
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Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #11 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-08-2019, 05:04 AM
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My other 105 car is a 1966 Duetto (105.03). Many years ago I read about a problem with 105 race cars in the 'Alfa Owner' magazine'. With their new compound super sticky tires, cars began having rear axle mounting points failures. The engineers who designed these cars never dreamed such cornering loads could be achieved. The failures caused the cars to develop bad cases of rear end steering, which most often resulted in crashed cars.

The Montreal (105.64) is built on a 1750 platform, so perhaps the engineering is a bit better. Surely there are still limitations; big wheels, powerful motors and sticky tires may help find them...


Mark
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post #12 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-08-2019, 07:32 AM Thread Starter
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I completely disagree there, an old car with 1 class suspension will only gain from modern tires! The old tires are like rolling sausages in comparison to modern low profile tires. Handling becomes much sharper and more precise with modern tires,.
I'm sorry Gator that is wrong. self leveling stiffer suspension, with vast amouts of caster and adverse camber have got nothing to do with the suspension of your Montreal. your suspension which travels much further than a modern car, does not increase the advers camber so that as your car leans it keeps the square foot print flat on the road (well, it might do a little bit with a shorter top wish bone i would guess, but not enough for a modern tyre). As your car leans under cornering forces, a proper classic tyre rolls over the shoulders of the tyre pprogressively where a modern square tyre lifts the inside edge and lets go suddenly.

This progressive behaviour is the handling we are talking about. what you are talking about is ultimate grip, but your chassis is not built for that level of grip which is why it willl more suddenly let go when you press on


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in addition with better braking
hmm maybe, but predominently in a straight line

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and water draining..
yep but fatter footprints er motre towards aquaplaining so it is a balance.



DPeterson3

Point taken about the word Better, but i am no literary genius.

However i cannot understand your situatiion with the CA67. I also think if you scan the forums of people using the current CA67 tyre, i don't think i have had anyone else not likeing them. I have them on my Elite and i would contradict everything you say about them. i did actually ended up doing a race on the CA67 in the soaking wet, they were fabulous, mainly because they were so predictable, so i just don't get it.


It is not all about grip. grip is different handling. Classic cars, particularly Alfa, have far more enjoyable handling than modern cars. That is part of why we like them. If we don't like progressive light rear wheel drive car then a classic Alfa is the wrong car for you. Buy a Austin Maestro or something front wheel drive.
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post #13 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-08-2019, 01:17 PM
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I am confident that the S001 will do all things better than the CN 36, which was not good enough(!) when it was a new pattern.

The S001 will brake better dry and wet, corner better, drain water better etc, etc, no compettion at all, so...maybe the CN36 is more comfy then and looks more correct at old car meetings. Otherwise no competition!
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post #14 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-08-2019, 05:18 PM
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All about personal taste, right? You own the car, you fit the tires you want!
Me, I am going for a set of period correct Michelin XWX's...
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post #15 of 48 (permalink) Old 10-08-2019, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Gabor K. View Post
I am confident that the S001 will do all things better than the CN 36, which was not good enough(!) when it was a new pattern.

The S001 will brake better dry and wet, corner better, drain water better etc, etc, no compettion at all, so...maybe the CN36 is more comfy then and looks more correct at old car meetings. Otherwise no competition!
Perhaps on a Montreal with independent rear suspension. Not on a spider with a solid rear axle though.

Chris

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