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Tyres

7K views 49 replies 12 participants last post by  robo330 
#1 ·
#2 ·
Hi Dougal,

My car sports a set of 195/70 14, P-4000's.

I've seen the 205/70 14 CN 36 tires you have available and on sale. I am curious; would you recommend them over the Michelin XWX or are they both equally good? The Vredestein 195/70 14 tire appears to be the only tire available in the original factory size. Our cars tend to have weak Burman steering boxes that are prone to crack. I have read that wider tires may aggravate this condition.

A Montreal buddy, occasionally on here -TeeJ, bought a set of the Vredestein tires and the full Alfaholics suspension and brake kit for his Montreal. He was not impressed with the handling characteristics of the Vredestein tires. To me they look a bit old fashioned. Honestly the XWX's look old fashioned, in your pictures as well but that is what came in my spare tire well. I suspect it may be original to the car.

I noticed in the "History of the Montreal" The classic Alfa Romeo Montreal featured a V8, which was very similar to the one found in the Alfa Romeo type 33 and a top speed of 130mph. The chassis was from the classic Alfa romeo 1750, the Alfa Romeo Montreal also possesed a 5 speed gearbox and ventilated disc brakes, which it needed to stop the roaring V8." Usually the top speed quoted is "over 137 mph".

Regarding your question "how many Montreal are still on the road?" I suspect that in a couple hours, I may be one of very few out there driving today.

Mark
 
#6 ·
I'm also am not a fan of the Vredestein. among other things they look completely modern, and aren't a proper period tyre like the Cinturato. I have driven a Spider on them and didn't like them we fitted XAS on that car. https://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/classic-car-tyres/alfa-romeo/spider-s3-s4.html#page=1 it was miiles better. HJad i done it again i would probably have gone for the 65HR114 Cinturato that Pirelli now make. The XAS is great, but i would just want a Pirelli on an Alfa.

The difference between modern tyres like the Vredestein or theis new Dunlop compared to proper classic car tyres like the XWX and the CN36 is they consider the proper carcass design so these tyres are suited to classic cars propgressive handling with their rounded carcass design. Modern tyres are designed to put more rubber on the road, because modern car design can compliment that but old cars need rounded carcasses. So i would rather drive on a 205/70VR14 Cintuurato CN36 https://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/cl...ntreal/205-70wr14-pirelli-cinturato-cn36.html or a 205/70VR14 XWX https://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/classic-car-tyres/alfa-romeo/montreal/205-70wr14-michelin-xwx.html than a modern 195/70R14 tyre that someone has taken the initiative to write the word classsic on the side of.
 
#3 ·
G'day Dougal

Did you know that Dunlop now make a tyre specifically for classic cars? They are the only manufacturer currently producing a 14" performance tyre. To get the exact same rolling diameter on a performance tyre in any other brand you will need to go to a 17" wheel - I don't think that would look too good on a Montreal. Also, Mark is right. It would put more stress on the steering box. Apart from that, 195mm width is hard enough to turn in the carpark as it is!

Cheers
Rob

Sport Classic
DUNLOP SPORT CLASSIC
Dunlop, one of the world’s leading brands for High and Ultra-High Performance tyres, announces the launch of its new Dunlop Sport Classic, meeting the needs of classic car drivers and optimized for the High Performance vehicles of the ‘60s, ‘70s and ‘80s.
The Dunlop Sport Classic is the latest in a long line of tyres that allow classic car drivers to rely on Dunlop’s strong heritage.
* Note: Porsche O.E. homologated rim widths.
SIZE SERVICE DESCRIPTION OD WIDTH RIMS FITMENT

195/70R14 91V 629 201 5.0-6.5 Alfa Romeo Montreal; BMW 2,5-3,3L; Chevrolet; Ford USA; Glas 2600; MB /8, W 123;, Pagode W113, Opel Commodore, Monza, Senator; Rover Vitesse, 3500; Ferrari Dino front axle
 
#4 ·
I am saving up to get a set of the Michelin XWX tires in a 205 X70X14 size. That is my preference over the Pirelli's - personal taste. The XWX has the same look from the 1970's and the 205 is only 1/2 inch wider and looks the best in my opinion. They are expensive, hence the comment at the start of this thread about "saving up"!!!
 
#5 · (Edited)
Depending on what the car will be used for.
If the intention is to drive to Meetings and Exhibitions of old cars a time correct tire is a winner. However if the car will mostly be for recreational driving trips along todays roads i would forget all about 30-40 years old tire patterns and buy modern tires.

There has been a lot of development of tires in all those years. Modern tires brake better, lesser noise, better water draining and more comfortable, like not so sensitive of steering feedback. So its nostalgy over modern day quality.

Its not so that only one tire brand is the best, so of the modern tires you should look for the best from Michelin, Continental and Bridgestone, they are the test winners these days. If going cheap there are a lot of other offers too, but why have such a nice Montreal with cheap tires?

Here a Montreal which has more than 14" wheels! And I like it!
 

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#7 ·
Depending on what the car will be used for.
If the intention is to drive to Meetings and Exhibitions of old cars a time correct tire is a winner. However if the car will mostly be for recreational driving trips along todays roads i would forget all about 30-40 years old tire patterns and buy modern tires.

There has been a lot of development of tires in all those years. Modern tires brake better, lesser noise, better water draining and more comfortable, like not so sensitive of steering feedback. So its nostalgy over modern day quality.
The car and the tyre have been developed together. the tyre has developed to take advantages of modern car design. So a modern tyre does not work as well on an old car, as a proper classic car tyre.

modern tyre tread design does contribute towards the movement of water. However compound is also very important. The Pirelli Cinturato CN36 and XWX are made using modern compounds, that move water far better than tyhey did in the day. part of what makes a classic tyre cacass better for a Classic car is it's rounded shoulders, which also helps move water.

Driving on a classsic tyre will make the car handle better. using a modern tyre will mean itr grips then lets go, rather than progressively.

Regardless of usage a proper period tyre is better. Horses for courses.

Its not so that only one tire brand is the best, so of the modern tires you should look for the best from Michelin, Continental and Bridgestone, they are the test winners these days. If going cheap there are a lot of other offers too, but why have such a nice Montreal with cheap tires?
Don't forget Pirelli as a premium brand.

Here a Montreal which has more than 14" wheels! And I like it!
Now here is where we completely agree.
 
#10 ·
Dougal and I have debated this subject for years. I personally dislike the use of the term "better", as it is an undefined term. It is often used by sales people to encourage the purchase of their products, but what is really "better"?

When I was operating the 16" Pirelli P4s on my 2000 Touring, in comparison to my current CA67 Pirelli 165-400s, they generated much more turning force, shorter stopping distances, greater stability in high speed highway touring, vastly more predictable handling in the wet, and totally linear behavior when changing from high-speed, straight ahead into decreasing radius turns.

The current CA67s offer a softer ride, and lower turning force required when parking. There are NO OTHER positives for the CA67s. In fact, I consider the CA67s to be somewhat dangerous when used in downhill, high speed turns, such as descending from Lake Tahoe. Of course, the danger is created by driving beyond the capabilities of the tires, but it points out that a modern tire is "better" in many circumstances than the tire originally designed with the old suspension.

However, since 90% of my driving is around town at low speeds, I am happy to drive on the CA67s for now.
 
#11 ·
My other 105 car is a 1966 Duetto (105.03). Many years ago I read about a problem with 105 race cars in the 'Alfa Owner' magazine'. With their new compound super sticky tires, cars began having rear axle mounting points failures. The engineers who designed these cars never dreamed such cornering loads could be achieved. The failures caused the cars to develop bad cases of rear end steering, which most often resulted in crashed cars.

The Montreal (105.64) is built on a 1750 platform, so perhaps the engineering is a bit better. Surely there are still limitations; big wheels, powerful motors and sticky tires may help find them...


Mark
 
#13 ·
I am confident that the S001 will do all things better than the CN 36, which was not good enough(!) when it was a new pattern.

The S001 will brake better dry and wet, corner better, drain water better etc, etc, no compettion at all, so...maybe the CN36 is more comfy then and looks more correct at old car meetings. Otherwise no competition!
 

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#17 ·
With the exception of Phillip Hehir in New Zealand, I don't know of too many people racing Alfa Montreal's. Maybe the Charges in Australia who rally their Montreal. In both cases they would be looking for fractions of a second in competition.
If you are really after ultimate grip, perhaps a set of Hoosiers? You can get them as slicks or with some marginal grooves for wet weather use....
 
#18 ·
Dougal,

Being a literary expert is not required to embrace facts.

If the observed performance is “better”, ie braking, more predictable grip in wet, more linear progression with increasing gee forces, more sharply defined turn-in, etc, then your reasons why the older generation tire SHOULD BE better do not matter. The newer designs simply out perform the earlier design in all respects except softness of ride, and steering force at slow speeds. Theory is irrelevant when presented with contrary facts.

I am happy to use the CA 67s for those two reasons, as they fit my current driving needs. If I intend to take a long, multi-day tour through the nearby mountains, with winding roads and the possibility of rain, I will switch back to my 16” P4s.

Your condescending lecture that maybe I should not be driving a classic car unless I choose your idea of what is “better” is not a convincing argument to give up my very long relationship with Alfas.

As noted elsewhere, the Alfa solid rear axle does a superior job of NOT rolling the tire over onto its edges. In an extreme case like racing, a poorly adjusted chassis may lift an inner tire, creating discontinuities, but we are not discussing racing here. In general, a modern tire with flatter tread area and stiffer sidewall will give a more predictable and linear response on Alfas than the soft-sides, round face CA67s or 36s. This is the observed truth, even if it contradicts theory.

Whether others have spoken up with their observations comparing old and new technology is irrelevant. While several are voicing their thoughts here, consensus is no way to declare “the truth”. Vocal reviews are powerfully self-selected, and tend to express loyalties rather than science.

I wish to applaud Pirelli for reintroducing their classic tires. I will continue to buy them. My reasons for buying them are not because they are universally “better”.
 
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#19 · (Edited)
Wasn't going to say anything but can't help myself.

There is a lot of BS spoken about low profile tyres improving handling and grip. Lets discuss:
1. What does "handling" mean? If it means feel through the steering wheel then yes lower profile tyres may very well make the steering feel sharper. If it means the car will do a particular autocross course faster, the answer is NOT necessarily.

2. What does "grip" mean? Well this one is easier to quantify as you can measure it. The low profile tyre fans will debate that low profile tyres provide more grip. This is absolutely NOT necessarily true and often the opposite.

Reasons: Grip is determined by how much friction there is between the road and the tyres. So many think a wider tyre will mean more grip. Seems logical, but this is ONLY the case if this wider tread surface remains on the ground, and this is where profile gets involved. A low profile tyre, with it's more rigid sidewalls that provides the sharper steering, will not be able to keep it's tread on the ground as well as the taller profile, less rigid sidewall, tyre. This is because as the body shell of the vehicle rolls around the corner, or goes over bumps, the suspension moves and unless your car has been designed for low profile tyres there might be some interesting wheel angles going on and heck only maybe 15% of that low profile tyre's tread surface is still able to stay connected to the road. Joe Blogs in his similar old/vintage car is following behind but he has higher profile tyres ... yes he has had to work harder to find the apex, but all of a sudden he is reeling in Mr Low Profile as his tyres have distorted but the result of this distortion is that more tread surface, maybe even nearly all of it, is still in contact with the ground. End result is Joe Blogs car corners faster as his car has more grip.

F1 is presently embarrassing itself by moving to low(er) profile tyres. The teams do not want to do this, but Pirelli are in full marketing mode and trying to make F1 more relevant to road cars. For some reason, big wheels and low profile tyres have become the modern thing, even though the ride is harsher and designing of the suspension for grip is more challenging as wheel angles have to be better controlled, but the upside is steering feel is improved (strange considering 99% of modern drivers don't give a stuff). The low profile fans will jump in with comments about how F1 will be able to run bigger brakes, etc. ... the current carbon fibre brakes are so good that tracks have to have their braking surfaces resealed after a F1 race, AND the FIA + fans would like to increase braking distances because this is one (of the many) reasons why passing is currently difficult. Note also F1 tracks are billiard table flat, but they still have a surprising amount of rear suspension travel (~150mm's).

If you ever find a photo of a F1 car in the middle of a corner and fully loaded up, the outer tyres are being murdered and the sidewall distortion is shocking, but the tread surface is all on the ground and they are gripping.

So low profile tyres on old cars, on real roads, IMO just does not make sense ... won't see any on my 1750, even if I raced it.
Pete
BTW: this has been tested by the Australian Top Gear show. The only useful thing they ever did. With exactly the same car and driver they tested the lap times with the optional low profile tyres and the standard tyres. The car lapped faster with the standard tyres. This test was done with a modern car so with an older car, the low profile tyre would likely be even slower.
 
#21 · (Edited)
What Alfa Romeo spec'ed. A modern tyre would have better rubber, tread, etc. anyway, so even same old size will be an improvement.

I wonder if tyre companies push the low profile tyre because there is less rubber, etc. required to make a low profile tyre ... so it's profit motivated, maybe?
Pete
 
#22 ·
Hi Pete

I need to buy new rims whatever happens so I'm open to any and all suggestions to rim sizes and tyre make / model. I understand that the original tyres (195/70/14) produce 815 revs/mile and I want to stick with that. I think the only true performance tyre that will give 815 revs/mile would require a 17" rim.

But now I'm too baffled with science to make a clear choice.

Cheers
Rob
 
#24 · (Edited)
I think I've just clicked at what you are saying.

I think what you are saying is that to stick to the original tyre you will end up with a tyre that has been designed to last long due to hard compound, etc. and not be a performance tyre.

And due to tyre manufacturers concentrating their performance effort on low profile tyres, you will need to go in that direction to get the good compounds and tyre construction.

The question I have to ask is why do you want so much tyre grip?

Will the old/vintage Alfa's chassis be able to use it?, without breaking things like the steering box.

Remember these cars were designed for the tyres of the time, which were great tyres back then but now would be considered suitable for boring family cars like a Toyota Vitz.

So if you are going to change to grippier tyres you will surely have to make spring rate and other suspension adjustments to try and get them to work well enough to be worth the expense.

I wonder whether concentrating on how to drive an old car in the old car style (lots of body roll, real drifting and carrying corner speed, maintaining momentum instead of point and squirt) would be more beneficial ...

But in the end, if you want to modify, the tyres will be just the start, and of course the journey could be lots of fun and enjoyment.
Pete
 
#26 ·
Dougal,

I meant to include the observation that all Alfas in the post-war era DO have unequal length A-arms on the front. This, in combination with the well-located solid rear axle do a very good job of keeping the tires near-vertical. Plus, the front springs on Alfas tend toward quite stiff, so this plus a stiff anti-roll bar, keep the front tires within a tight orientation to the road. Thus, rounded tread area is not really required.

An unavoidable element in this discussion is the nature of Alfas and Alfa owners. Alfas have always been treated to owner modifications to suit each owner’s preferences. There can be no “Best” in such a multi-variable question.

I’ve got two 2000s. One on CA67s and Borranis. Its mission is to be a beautiful ride. The other has a very powerful motor, good music system, and two options for tires. One set for daily in-town driving, the other for high speed, curvy-road Touring.

As for the Montreal....

When I first got my Montreal, on original sized tires, and original brakes and suspension, it terrified me. So, handling kit, 15” wheels with Michelin AS Exalto Pilot Sports with lower/wider profile, and bigger brakes transformed the car. No longer a spongy tourer, but fabulous for smooth road thrills.

We all get to determine what is “Best”. For each of our own cars.
 
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#29 · (Edited)
Completely agree, and 15" is very suitable, but 17" would IMO be getting 'cap on backwards, boom box installed, no ground clearance, wing riveted on to the boot lid' sort of situation.

And yes all us Alfisti like to believe that our old Alfa has great suspension and keeps the wheels perfect, and so much better engineered than anything else, but time marches on and the best demonstration of this I have ever seen was at a New Zealand club meet at Manfield racetrack (a windy racetrack where handling/grip matters). This is back when the front wheel drive GTV's were new, and a young man turned up in a brand new one, possibly a v6, and with 100% dead standard car straight out of the show room (and I do not believe the owner was a professional racing driver). This car absolutely blew every other car away, and I mean 200hp+ 105 coupes that had been racing and winning for years.

My conclusions:
1. Really low profile tyres are marketing driven, not performance, but yes it is up to the owner to decide whether he/she wants crisper feeling handling or more grip. More grip is not really that important for road cars, but please lets all drop the "low profile tyres are faster" BS ...
2. Production car engineers have actually been working since 1963, when the first 105 series chassis was built, and they really have improved things. My 156v6 will always be a moderner, more precise, drive than my 1750 GTV ... otherwise those engineers should be sacked :D

But that doesn't mean some of us can't play :) (I personally think stiffening the shell would improve our old cars the best, but that is hardly easy to do) ... just don't say low profile tyres are better, because that is conditional
Pete
 
#27 ·
Just got back after driving the Montreal through some very nice roads with lots of winding stretches and some short straights. Spirited driving with friends with speeds 85 and 95 till we got to the tighter stuff and of course the speeds dropped. The Montreal did not put a foot wrong and easily kept up with the group that included Porsche 911's, 356's, Ferrari 308's and even a very hot Opel GT! Always predictable, very little bump steer and good turn in. The car has 205 x 70 x 14" tires. They are getting a little long in the tooth, so I am looking for some Michelin XWX's.
 
#28 ·
Found those tires at a dealer here, original pattern but 205/70-VR14 is not original size. Should be possible to order these.

https://www.cokertire.com/tires/brands/michelin-tires/michelin-xwx.html

There is an extensive chapter on wheels and tires on the Montreal.info site. Also some reports on what sizes the owners have tried on ranging from 15" to 17". Unfortunately the best tires today come in bigger sizes, so VR in 14"-16" are soon extinct and one has to rely on specialist tire dealers for old cars.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Last year I replaced the 10 yr old Goodrich TA's on the Montreal with Michelin XWX's. The Michelins are far superior in terms of handling and steering feel as well as ride comfort. The added bonus is that they look period correct. As I have never explored the limits of the Montreal I don't know whether the newer or older tire is better at limit. I can tell you that at 6/10 or 7/10 the Michelin is far superior to the T/A.
In addition I had the chance to spend some time last weekend with the Michelin engineer in charge of the PS A/S4 project - that's the tire that will be on all the standard 2020 Corvettes. The first all season tire to be on a Corvette. This should be an amazing tire that will pull 1+ g in the dry and excellent wet performance. He also told me that Michelin still makes all their own classic tires unlike others that sell or lease the molds to dealers like Coker. He also said the XWX looks like the classic tire and was designed for classic car suspensions but was actually developed as a new tire with newer internals and compounds than the 50 yr old namesake. Maybe I can partly justify the price now....
 
#31 · (Edited)
Actually my early post was that modern tread patterns are a lot more effective than the old patterns from seventies and eighties. Then many started to write about bigger wheels have no advantage over the smaller older wheels. Referring to Top Gear test, the most objective ones??

To start with people put on whatever they want of tires, not much my concern. We are discussing if new tires are better than the 30-40 year old patterns, not old rubber versus new rubber.

There is a bit of problem that modern tests dont include comparisons between modern tires versus reproductions with old patterns. However anybody can see that the development of tires over 30-40 years old tires have made big leaps forward. Speeds are much higher and it demands better braking, steering,water draining than in the old days to have good safety at higher speeds. At the same time with lower profile tires, comfort and steering response must be better than before.

Actually today only old cars use 14"-16" wheels, so those sizes are disappearing, however I saw a comparison test for 17" (which is small today) 18" and 19". They used a Golf car with these wheel sizes and had the same tire and tread on all the sizes. As it came out they found the 18" to be the best compromise on this car. So improvement in handling and feel stopped there. 19" was actually too much for comfort. I think of my experience that handling and feel will be improved by lowering profile up to a limit which could be different for different cars.

So my conclusion is tires in the old days were no good, bad braking, aquaplaning at low speed, mushy steering response, actually no good at all. Had Pirelli P6 on my car and that was exactly as bad as mentioned above! Eventually Bridgestone arrived with the RE-71 which was worlds better in all aspects. Could not understand why Pirelli had such a good name then! Today if they reproduced the P6 I would really not think about putting them on, whatever compound!!

Some entertainment about tires:





https://whattyre.com/news/classic-look-new-technology-auto-bild-tests-tyres-for-yesterdays-heroes/
 

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#33 ·
Actually today only old cars use 14"-16" wheels, so those sizes are disappearing, however I saw a comparison test for 17" (which is small today) 18" and 19". They used a Golf car with these wheel sizes and had the same tire and tread on all the sizes. As it came out they found the 18" to be the best compromise on this car. So improvement in handling and feel stopped there. 19" was actually too much for comfort. I think of my experience that handling and feel will be improved by lowering profile up to a limit which could be different for different cars.

https://whattyre.com/news/classic-look-new-technology-auto-bild-tests-tyres-for-yesterdays-heroes/
Note the Golf was designed for that wheel and tyre profile, and again proved that going to a too lower profile was detrimental.

Putting an 18" wheel with like a 30 series profile on a GTV would be hopeless.

Btw: I own a Toyota Vitz and it has 14" wheels and I have no problem buying tyres for it, so I don't know where this comment that you can't buy 14" tyres anymore comes from. Currently it runs 165s just like GTVs did originally. Of course it does not run Pirellis but ...

But yes you are of course right, just like the car manufacturer's engineers, the tyre engineers have been working hard for the last 50 years and modern tyres are better.

... so returning to my Vitz, a Chinese 14" cheap tyre made in 2019 is probably superior to a Michelin or Pirelli made back in the 70s ... so if you're not a brand snob, there is no issue.
Pete
 
#35 ·
Below is a link to a review on new classic tires. I found it helpful when buying mine and went with the CN36’s.

Are there better performing modern tire designs sure. But in my stock ‘74 and the way I drive, I certainly don’t need them. They are also endorsed by Porsche for their 70’s cars for what that is worth.

I put 1600 miles on mine so far and very happy. Love the look too

https://docs.google.com/viewerng/vi...h-website/porsche/porsche-classic-article.pdf
 

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#36 ·
Nice you are happy with your choice of tires, the CN36 actually came out best of the test here. The XWX not so good on the wet as expected. Thanks for the test I was looking for it!

On the other hand this test only confirms that modern tires are much better in all kind of testing, but maybe we all agree on that, and the choice of vintage tires is not because they are best but because they look best on the vintage car.

Looking at the braking and aquaplaning values of the vintage tires which show they brake much longer distance and Aqua plane much earlier than modern tire. I am sure I would not like to have a car with those tires behind me on wet roads or track days. Hoping for good distance between cars at least.

Here some oltimers trying on vintage tires.

 
#43 ·
BTW,

I was under the rear of my 59 102 yesterday seeking the source of an annoying rattle. It is equipped with new production CA67 Cinturatos.

As part of my investigation, I grabbed the bumper and moved the body left and right. The sidewalls of the CA67s displayed a surprising degree of deflection, with just one hand and a gentle motion. When I did this with my P4s there was essentially no visible deflection.

This explains the dramatic, non-linear, and dangerous behavior with the CA67s when attempting higher gee turns at speed. The P4s just turn and grip. The front-wheel CA67s, at slower speeds than the P4s, just roll and tuck under, creating a sudden roll outside, loss of traction, and a tendency for the steering to auto-turn into the turn.

Very scary.

Solution....

Drive CA67s on calm, gentle tours, and attempt no spirited driving.
Use P4s for higher speeds and in anticipation of enjoying fun curves.
 
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