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post #1 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-04-2014, 10:57 AM Thread Starter
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Painting configuration

Hi everybody,

I have in project the complete restoration of a 1972 Montréal.

Does any one can describe my the original painting configuration ?
==> Are the following zones the same color than the external car ? :
  • the underside of the car
  • the inside trunk
  • the engine compartment
  • the wheel arches

Regards,
Serge.
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post #2 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-04-2014, 11:14 AM
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Underside is generally black undercoating.
Engine compartment appears to be largely satin black
Not sure of trunk, but Alfas are often body color back there, then covered with mats or carpets. Some, such as my 102, were painted black.
Wheel arches painted body color, but covered with black undercoating.
Lower body panels (long pieces below the doors) are a very dark gray.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #3 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-04-2014, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you Don for this complete and precise answer.
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post #4 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-04-2014, 12:52 PM Thread Starter
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One more detail if you don't mind :
Is the inside part of the engine hood satin black also ?
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post #5 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-04-2014, 12:56 PM
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And I'll add to Serge's questions. On the panel underneath the doors that should be painted a very dark gray, is this smooth or textured? Gloss or satin? With my car, it's a textured surface that is black satin in color (though it's not undercoating). I suspect that the color/texture is not original since my car doesn't wear its original paint (originally orange, repainted ~25-30 yrs ago to rosso). Thanks all.

Last edited by malex; 11-04-2014 at 12:59 PM.
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post #6 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-04-2014, 01:58 PM
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I believe the lower panels should be gloss. I have seen the textured black, but it looks out of period and character to me.

I'm not certain if the underhood should be satin (which is glossier than flat black) or full gloss. I suspect satin.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #7 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-04-2014, 02:52 PM
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Hi Serge,
Congratulations on getting your Montreal fully restored! I read in Bruce Taylor's "Montreal the Essential Companion" (a must have!
M-tEC)" I believe, that the bodies were originally galvanized in some areas and then the entire shell was dipped in a new electrophoretic coating for corrosion protection, then they were painted by hand (with a spray gun). I just repainted underneath my hood and used a semi-flat black spray paint by Krylon (auto parts store) and it turned out very well. I added a few areas to your list

Quote:
Originally Posted by PS70 View Post
:
  • the underside of the car- Black (flat or semi flat if you don't undercoating)
  • the inside trunk- Body color (under carpet)
  • the engine compartment- Semi-flat black
  • underhood- Semi-flat black, however the 'hood skin' that wraps under
    the hood (~10mm) is usually masked and left body color under the hood
  • the wheel arches- Semi-flat black, inside the engine compartment
  • Lower body panels (long pieces below the doors) are satin black on my car
  • Front air dam- gloss or semi gloss black bare fiberglass on my car
  • Window frames on doors Semi-flat black inside and on top
  • Inside headlight binacle, and back of 'eye lids' Semi-flat black
  • Inside front grill mesh Semi-gloss black
  • Inside of rear bumper under license holder Semi-gloss black
  • Vents behind door openings Semi-gloss black
  • NACA duct on hood- gloss black
  • Windshield wiper blade holders and arms- stainless steel unpolished
Hannelore has nice reproduction decals for the engine compartment and Giorgio has many rare and hard to find Montreal parts. If you would like, send me a PM with your email address and I will send you their color e-brochures (it makes Hannelore )

Mark

Last edited by IRONBLOCK; 11-04-2014 at 03:06 PM.
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post #8 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-04-2014, 04:44 PM
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Mark, et al...

I am under the impression than none of the exterior panels were originally painted black. This seems to be a common choice when repainting the car, but the "lava gray" seemed to be the original color for the lower panels, area inside the rear bumper, and spoiler.

I've never seen the inside of the headlight louvers painted anything other than body color, but black seems to make sense to better hide them when folded down. Hmmm.

Window frams semi-flat black? Haven't seen that before, but then I've seen only a handful of Montreals at this point.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #9 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-05-2014, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
I am under the impression than none of the exterior panels were originally painted black. This seems to be a common choice when repainting the car, but the "lava gray" seemed to be the original color for the lower panels, area inside the rear bumper, and spoiler.
The front spoiler, the rocker panels and the rear panel with the "Alfa Romeo" script is black in the old press photos. I.e., charcoal grey/lava grey.

I'm not sure about the bonnet, but my unpainted bonnet was matt black on the inside.

Here's Bjørnar's Montreal restored by ex-Bertone Classic employee Massimo Chiara. He claims the colour scheme is correct all around. The dark areas appear satin without any texture to me.
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Last edited by TorW; 11-05-2014 at 03:32 PM.
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post #10 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-05-2014, 04:44 PM
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There is a definite difference between lava gray and black, although photos don't do a good job of showing it. I've seen several Montreals painted black along the rockers and rear panel, but believe this to be an incorrect interpretation of photographs. I had several comments at the recent Concorso from supposed Montreal "experts" (this means they know more than I claim to know) that the very dark gray is correct, and much more complimentary than black to the colors for the rest of the body.

The silver one sold for 99k at Bonhams this year was painted midnight black in these areas, with texturing of sorts along the lower side. Yuck. Perhaps this was a good way to hide problems in those panels?

The underhood paint I've seen has always been a satin black down in the engine bay, but a somewhat shinier black on the underside of the hood. Won't claim this is original either way.

The air cleaner, headlight shutter vacuum reservoir, and a few others should be gloss black, not the wrinkled black that they are occasional redone in. The wrinkle looks good, but isn't OE.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #11 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-07-2014, 01:19 PM Thread Starter
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Hi everybody,

And many thanks for all these detailed answers.
Unfortunately, my english level is too poor and I have some difficulties to understand you sometimes :
What is the difference between semi gloss, satin and semi flat ?
What are the following parts :
  • Front air dam
  • Inside headlight binnacle
  • Inside front grill mesh
  • Vents behind door openings

Meanwhile, this is what I understand, please don't hesitate to correct me :

Underside : Satin Black
Trunk : Body Color
Engine compartment : Satin Black
Under hood : Satin Black
Wheel arches : Satin Black
Lower body panels : Satin charcoal grey/lava grey
Front air dam : Satin Black
Window frames : Satin Black
Inside headlight binnacle : Satin Black
Eye lids : Satin Black
Inside front grill mesh : Satin Black
Inside of rear bumper under license holder : Satin charcoal grey/lava grey
Vents behind door openings : Satin Black
NACA duct : Gloss black
Windshield wiper blade holders and arms : Stainless steel un-polished
Front spoiler : Satin charcoal grey/lava grey
The air cleaner : Gloss black
Headlight shutter vacuum reservoir : Gloss black

Serge
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post #12 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-07-2014, 01:51 PM
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Hi Serge,
Your English is much better than my French, especially if spelling counts!
What is the difference between semi gloss, satin and semi flat ?

Here is a general description of paint shine levels from Dull to shiny:
flat, matte, eggshell, satin, silk, semi-gloss and high gloss or more specifically:
Flat (1–9% gloss)
Low Sheen or Semi Flat (10–25% gloss)
Eggshell (26–40% gloss)
Semi Gloss (41–69% gloss)
Gloss (70–89% gloss)
I used to manage a paint testing lab and we had equipment (Hunter Gloss Meters to measure gloss or color; you will find similar descriptions on paint cans in French.

What are the following parts :
  • Front air dam, spoiler-fiberglass piece added under front bumpers
  • Inside headlight binnacle- area surrounding the headlights
  • Inside front grill mesh- expanded steel net like material
  • Vents behind door openings- also expanded steel net like material inside the 6 slots on each side of the car to the rear of the door openings

Meanwhile, this is what I understand, please don't hesitate to correct me :
Underside : Satin Black
Trunk : Body Color
Engine compartment : Satin Black
Under hood : Satin Black
Wheel arches : Satin Black
Lower body panels : Satin charcoal grey/lava grey (I have never seen others in gray & thought that was Don's preference for his car; I like it with the orange!)
Front air dam/front spoiler : Satin Black or possibly gray
Window frames : Satin Black
Inside headlight binnacle : Satin Black
InsideEye lids : Satin Black (the exterior of 'eyelids' top of headlight covers match body paint work.
Inside front grill mesh : Satin Black
Inside of rear bumper under license holder : Satin charcoal grey/lava grey (When my rear bumper was removed (probably for the first time), I found battleship grey paint under it, that had been painted over in black on the part that is normally exposed on this 347 Medio Blu car.)
Vents behind door openings : Satin Black
NACA duct : Gloss black
Windshield wiper blade holders and arms : Stainless steel un-polished
The air cleaner : Gloss black
Headlight shutter vacuum reservoir : Gloss black

Serge
Mark

Last edited by IRONBLOCK; 08-14-2019 at 03:56 AM. Reason: found grey directly under rear bumper
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post #13 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-07-2014, 03:03 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you Mark for your answer.

Few things are still a little bit confusing for me: It'll be easier when I will have the car in front of me.

This discussion regarding color configuration is very important for me because I really want to realize a high quality restoration with this amazing car.

The car is running and is in a very good condition but first step will be to dismount it completely to be sure to realize a perfect painting including all these details.

Thanks again
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post #14 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-07-2014, 03:13 PM
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The long panels along the bottom on each side should be gloss lava-gray, not satin. The lava gray is very, very dark gray, but I believe black is incorrect on this.

The same color is on the body just ahead of the rear bumpers. It is the part of the body that the rear license plate attaches to.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #15 of 43 (permalink) Old 11-07-2014, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
The same color is on the body just ahead of the rear bumpers. It is the part of the body that the rear license plate attaches to.
Yes. While I can't vouch for the colour, sheen or texture on this particular Montreal, the layout is correct:
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