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Peconga 03-09-2008 04:36 PM

Identify this vintage Alfa
 
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Here is a photo of an unknown vintage Alfa, with a couple simple questions: What is it? And where is it now?

I took this snapshot in September 1974 at the Kruse Brother's Auction in Auburn, Indiana. Unfortunately, I have long since lost the program from the auction, and have no other recollection* of the car (other than being surprised by how small it was).

Any takers?
- Peconga


* Other recollections of the weekend remain vivid, though, including the sound of a dozen Duesenbergs parading through downtown Auburn past the old Auburn-Cord factory. Amazingly, I was passed by two of them driving at speed on the Interstate later that evening, in addition to a matched pair of supercharged Cord 812s (a Westchester and a Phaeton). Hard to imagine that happening these days!

TimNuvolari 03-10-2008 01:31 PM

8c2300
 
It is an 8C2300, as far as I know, it is shown in Simon Moore's book and if I get a chance tonight to look up the details I will post more tomorrow, cheers
Tim

Peconga 03-15-2008 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimNuvolari (Post 505733)
It is an 8C2300, as far as I know, it is shown in Simon Moore's book and if I get a chance tonight to look up the details I will post more tomorrow, cheers
Tim

I received my copy of Simon Moore's 3-volume set earlier today, and all I can say is "Wow"! Buying it was one of those things I kept meaning to do, but never seemed to get around to (until now). Not cheap of course, but a classic reference that will be cherished forever. Thanks for prodding me forward, Tim.

Having said that, I've been poring through every page this evening, but haven't seen anything like the car above. Is it a post-war special on a 8C2300, or a 6C2500 perhaps? Or did I just overlook something? Nothing like a 30-year-old mystery to get the blood moving!

Cheers,
Doug alias Peconga

tubut 03-15-2008 09:48 PM

I couldn't find this car in Simon Moore's book either. I'm not even sure it's an Alfa.

Did you ask Kruse for a photocopy of the list of the cars that were at this particular auction?

rcess 03-16-2008 04:18 AM

I agree with Ruedi. I doubt if this is an Alfa.

TimNuvolari 03-16-2008 02:07 PM

Strange Alfa
 
Hi

Same thing I came up with, without more information, impossible to say, although the grille did look vaguely similar to one fitted to a 8C, but not the same. Dunno mate. And the Moore 8C2300 book is about as good as it gets in the book world, roll on his GP book or the updated 8C2.9 book.

Tim

Zagato_Olaf 03-17-2008 07:52 AM

Front fenders look vaguely like #412031
 
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Hello TimNuvolari and other forummembers,

I doubt whether this is an Alfa Romeo.

The front fenders vaguely represent the front fenders as found on 8C 2900 #412031 and #412032 (pages 169 and further in the book 'The Immortal 2.9' by Simon Moore). But as far as I can see, the cut out holes are in the wrong place, the line of the fenders is different and things like the side indicators are missing whem compared to #412031.

It almost looks like somebody tried to imitate the lines on some of the cars in the 6C2300, 8C2900 and 6C2500 series on an unknown chassis? Any suggestions?

Ciao, Olaf

tubut 03-17-2008 09:33 AM

Olaf, does Simon Moore mention who the coachbuilder was?

Peconga 03-17-2008 09:54 AM

Since I stirred the pot with this car in the first place, I called Kruse Auctions this morning to see what they might have on file. Very helpful people, and one of their fellows is digging into the archives to see what he can find. Of course, considering the auction was 34 years ago, I was pleasantly surprised that he didn't just hang up on me. I'll report back with any updates.

Cheers!
Doug

Zagato_Olaf 03-17-2008 01:21 PM

Front fenders look a little bit like the Touring Mille Miglia Spiders
 
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Quote:

Originally Posted by tubut (Post 510364)
Olaf, does Simon Moore mention who the coachbuilder was?

Hello Ruedi,

Yes he does! Both 8C2900's I mentioned were built by Touring as Mille Miglia Spiders. Especially #412031 had it's headlights in the front fenders more or less in the same way as the car in the picture shown.

The front fenders also carry some resemblence to the 6C2300B Touring Berlinetta's of the 2nd series that ran in the Mille Miglia of 1937. See the pages 323 and 324 of the Fusi Bible of 1978.

What looks strange to me is, that the front fenders appear not to be connected to each other under the radiator. Is that correct or do I see that wrong?

Ciao! Olaf

Cris 03-18-2008 07:46 PM

It looks like a Maserati of some sort, possibly a 4CS, maybe Brianza-bodied.

Cris

Zagato_Olaf 03-19-2008 03:17 AM

Maserati 4CS
 
876 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cris (Post 511392)
It looks like a Maserati of some sort, possibly a 4CS, maybe Brianza-bodied.

Cris

Hi Cris,

Something like this?

Ciao, Olaf

Zagato_Olaf 03-19-2008 03:41 AM

Maserati 4CS MM
 
876 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cris (Post 511392)
It looks like a Maserati of some sort, possibly a 4CS, maybe Brianza-bodied.

Cris


Or more like this?

Ciao, Olaf

Peconga 03-19-2008 08:14 AM

Thank you Chris and Olaf for pointing me in a new direction with this "Alfa", which is looking more and more like a Maserati Tipo 4CS 1100 , possibly chassis #1123 before it was rebodied in 1977 (and then again in the 1990s). I always thought it was a special bodied Alfa Romeo, since that is what I wrote on the back of the snapshot. But that was 34 years ago and could be a lapse of memory. The photo is too indistinct to make out the badge on the nose, but under a loupe it looks like it could be either an Alfa or a Maserati Trident logo. See this link for Detail description of #1123 on www.barchetta.cc

There were only thirteen of the Tipo 4CS cars made in two seat configuration, with 1100 and 1500 engines (Count Giovanni "Johnny" Lurani routinely swapped engines in one of his in order run in different classes). Hence I was able to work backwards through a process of elimination to zero in on #1123 as the most likely candidate. Another possibility would be a re-bodied Tipo 4CM (monoposto = single seat) but so far they all seem to be accounted for.

There is a striking similarity between the unknown "Kruse" car and the second car above (#1124, with closed fenders), which is the well-known ex- Briggs Cunningham / Rosso Bianco Collection car which sold at Bonham's Monaco auction in May 2006 for €643,000. It was originally made for the 1935 Mille Miglia; see the following link with
Details in Bonham's program notes for #1124

In addition to the usual printed sources (principally Orsini & Zagari's book) there is a lot of fascinating detail in a thread on 4CS and 4CM on www.Ultimatecarpage.com forums where I have also posted some inquiries, which may lead to some more definitive answers. Meanwhile there is a chance that the Kruse people may find some more materials in their archive which will shed some light on things.

The only thing better than a good mystery, is seeing it solved. And I think we're getting closer.

Cheers!

Subtle 03-19-2008 08:28 AM

Interesting research + + +


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