Alfa Romeo 2000 Sportiva Bertone - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #16 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-14-2013, 08:20 AM
Registered User
 
Buck Bundy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Anglesey, Wales
Posts: 1
One little correction to make:

Carlo stated the red coupe was traded by the Museo for one of the first Alfa's ever built, but in fact it was for the earliest car the Museum knew of Nicola Romeo's name, so actually one of the first Alfa Romeos ever made.

And yes, common understanding is that 2 coupes and 2 spiders were made, but only 2 coupes and 1 spider still exist. But nobody knows for sure.
Buck Bundy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-16-2013, 01:23 PM
Registered User
 
iicarJohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 1,660
2000 Sport & Sportiva

I have seen a couple of these cars personally on more than one occasion but have never gotten intimate with one so as to inspect any of its innards. I did see a very special engine awaiting a rebuild in the 1980's. From data collected to date ... during my general study of these cars, begun in earnest around 1980:

Three cars are known today bearing the chassis numbers 00002, 00003, and 00004. The numbering makes them part of the same "series" and these numbers strongly imply the existence of a car numbered 00001. There is no documentation I've seen (yet) to such a car listing it by chassis number. Then again, I've not made it a specific study and there may well be documents remaining at Alfa Romeo describing the four(?) cars more than adequately? There is use history for (and a few published photos of) a car that probably is the car that was numbered "00001". It was raced by Sanesi on the Vermicino - Rocca di Papa (edit: NOT Pontedecimo - Giovi) hill-climb during May of 1955. A photo appears on page 150 of the book about the history of that hillclimb event.

Two open cars, 00001(?) and 00002, appear to have been known generally (if early on?) as "2000 Sport" even though "1900" was used as part of the chassis number prefix of the one car that is known today. It is possible that the chassis of 00001(?) was used to build one of the "Sportiva" coupe examples that exist today as "00003" and "00004"? These two cars have been reported as having slight variations in the prefix designation of the chassis number but also incorporate "1900" as part of each number. The chassis re-use possibility is only a POSSIBILITY. I am not promoting it as "fact". In the end it may not seem terribly important to describe this small grouping of cars down to such detail? The impact of the series was more generic from a marketing standpoint than it was specific to each car's individual significance. It may not matter (?) ... until someone offers you chassis "00001" ... perhaps out of Italy or Belgium or another corner of the world where someone believes there is a sucker born every 12 nanoseconds. Perhaps I should acknowledge that there has never been any indication (I am aware of) that there was a chassis "00005" built ... but I am sure that there are some who'd be pleased to build one for you. Or for someone else who'd like to sell it to you. There certainly are a number of wanna-be "Disco Volante" cars awaiting gullible buyers! There's nothing wrong with those sorts of fantasy-fulfillment toys, but they do distract us from the study of actual history when spurious claims are made about their origins.

As with the various derivative cars that were quickly known and promoted as "Disco Volante" (even though the term was supposedly intended to be rather excusive at the beginning) the "Sportiva" term has become applied to a few cars that were perhaps not intended to carry that name?

In a pure sense, it may be "most accurate"(?) to say that there were two examples of the "2000 Sport" (a.k.a. "1900 Sportiva spider" ... and variations on that sort of name use in the press) and that there were two "Sportiva" examples as well? Historical references can certainly be found and promoted to make this seem evident. But then, there are inconsistencies in usage that can also be found and one can choose to interpret the promotional wording and editorial mistakes(?) in other ways.

In the end, all these cars became promotional tools for the marketing of Alfa Romeo 1900 and Alfa Romeo 2000 production cars that sometimes shared not much more than some portion of their model name designations ... and it seems that the popular name usage morphed a bit with the changeover from Alfa Romeo's production of the 1900 into the 2000.

I'm sure that there will be those who disagree with my interpretation of the data. But then, we are discussing very few cars that had almost no individual significant use history. Yes, they are lovely. Yes, they are inspirational in pleasant ways. They are certainly quite excusive! If there were ideas for these cars to be something more as they were being built, it seems those ideas were quickly abandoned in favor of using them as marketing tools. if not, they would have become less exclusive and perhaps just a bit less fascinating to us?

John

Last edited by iicarJohn; 04-17-2013 at 11:05 AM. Reason: correction
iicarJohn is offline  
post #18 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-17-2013, 08:14 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,211
Pictures of the Spider as it is today.
Attached Images
    
2000 touring sp is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #19 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-17-2013, 08:19 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,211
more pictures
Attached Images
 
2000 touring sp is offline  
post #20 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-17-2013, 08:26 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,211
Spider as in the past.
Attached Images
    
2000 touring sp is offline  
post #21 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-17-2013, 08:38 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,211
Engine bay from the silver coupe.

Rear axle design.
Attached Images
   
2000 touring sp is offline  
post #22 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-17-2013, 08:43 AM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Subtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, B C
Posts: 6,233
Cool

Thanks......Not seen these before.

Bob,
Avatar is the 68 Super, bought new.
Subtle is offline  
post #23 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-17-2013, 08:47 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,211
Hello John long time no se.
First I think it could be interesting to se the picture you are referring
to.
"a car that probably is the car that was numbered "00001". It was raced by
Sanesi on the Pontedecimo - Giovi hill-climb during May of 1955. A photo
appears on page 150 of the book about the history of that hillclimb event".

Second , I have always respected you comments as well argument as
interesting, and well founded.
But I find that you are assuming a lot in this argument.
OK. we are in the 50es, with 10 years of "might have been". And that opens
up for assumption. Because , at least to my knowledge, there isn't any
information about the decision for and against, on all these "might have
been".

But we know something.
The 1900 , engine block was originally planned to have a castled aluminium
block.
It was changed to cast ion. On technical production problems, or shortage of
material, who knows.
The first 1900 had a capacity of 1884 ccm 82,55x88. Witch was given by the
pistons that was available, at the time. A real 1900 engine capacity.
When pistons was generally availed on the market. The 1900 Super was
presented. Capacity 1975 ccm 84,5 x 88. A real 2000 engine capacity.
Whey they didn't change the designation, at that time, don't know. But it
can be marketing reason.
The Disco Volante had the engine in fully aluminium.
I think we then can levee the 1900 out of the 1955 Alfa Romeo 2000
prototypes.

We are in 1955. It is time to plan an replacement for the 1900 models. Alfa
Romeo is technical able to produce in series engine blokes in Aluminium, an
option for the new series. The
rear axle design on the 1900, hasn't not been full up to the expectations
from the design department. For a car in this price level. The 1900 was app.
duple up the price of a Giulietta.
So I think, there was , from the Board, given green light to start develop a
model to release the 1900 models.

There is the 2 Coupes Beautiful as they are. They have a design , as I se
it, that is clearly Bertone Scaglione design.
"until someone offers you chassis "00001" ... perhaps out of Italy or
Belgium or another corner of the world where someone believes there is a
sucker born every 12"
I have said several times, if I got a heavy load of money, I would have a
Sportive build on a Alfatta GTV. So I will gladly be one of the SUCKER.

I do se the Bertone 2000 Sportiva as pre production coupes for a new car.
Engine, with a spec, that revile the heritage 138hk. A DeDion rear
axle, and a 5 speed gearbox. That's really a design that points forward.
It is said that there was produced chassis for a whole series of Road going
2000 Sportiva.

Parallel to the proposal for a Coupe for serial production, Road going
version, They made a
spider and coupe prototypes for Competition. And I se these 2 as a Design of
Buano?.But that isnt important in the total picture.
If we look at carloīs post #5 from ,Thoroughbred & Classic Cars July 1986,
it shoves a spider with great similarity to the spider, that, to day, is run
by the museum. With on minor diff. The original spider, had an active
spoiler at the front. That gave a higher down force with increased speed. We
saw a similar spoiler on the Alfa Romeo 90 Berlina from the 80es.
The Coupe that was tested, isn't exactly, the Scaglione design, as I se
it. Se Carlo's post 3, the Rens Biesma, drawings of the competition coupe.
There is pictures around that confirms the different options that was tested
on the Coupe, as in the drawing.

So I don't se them as marketing objects. They have posted to mush afford
into the project. Just for promotion, NO.
But, whey we didn't get them. Maybe we will never know. But I hope there
will be hope for the SUCKER, to have the answer some day.
But I personally think it was a question of priority.
The little Giulia was more important in 1954-55.
But whey they didn't use it in 1957-58. When the 2000 was presented . Thats
the question
It was the most prommesing projekt, after WW2. And i fell with sorrow that
it shuld take 15 years before we god the construktion

When we finally got the 2000 model line in 1958. It was on a old chassis
design, the 1900. But then we finally got the "1900 Spider", that has been
missing for 8 years.
Attached Images
 
2000 touring sp is offline  
post #24 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-17-2013, 08:57 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,211
a last one

Coupe in racing design, there is more pictures around
Attached Images
 
2000 touring sp is offline  
post #25 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-17-2013, 09:41 AM
Registered User
 
iicarJohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 1,660
Not Pontedecimo

Sorry! I meant to write that Sanesi drove the car that I presume was chassis 00001 on the Vermicino - Rocca di Papa 8 May 1955. He was 2nd o/a and 1st in class. There is a photo in the book about that event. The photo is not mine to share here.

John
iicarJohn is offline  
post #26 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-17-2013, 09:42 AM
Registered User
 
iicarJohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 1,660
1900 Sport engine

The special engine I saw (in 1987?) awaiting a rebuild (for Alfa Romeo, I believe) was indeed aluminum.
iicarJohn is offline  
post #27 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-17-2013, 09:59 AM
Registered User
 
iicarJohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: California
Posts: 1,660
Sucker?

I did not call anyone a "sucker". That comment was used in the most general terms, based on the very old saying, "A sucker is born every minute!".

If you build a car to satisfy your own wishes, that is fine. If you sell it to someone else as something it is not ... this is not so fine. If that person buys it knowing full well what it is, that is also fine. If that person buys it without doing any research whatsoever to confirm that something "too good to be true" is indeed "too good to be true", then that person has buried his head in the sand and at least pretends to be a "sucker".

I am sorry if the word "sucker" is objectionable. We are living in a collector-car investment world where there are far too many knowledgeable people pretending that mis-representation is OK ... simply because there is a potential commission involved in an associated sale to or from associated people. There seems to be a tacit acceptance that everyone "playing" with cars as investments is somehow a "sophisticated investor". I'm not inserted firmly into the commercial end of such things but, even so, I've seen too many examples of people who've had their disappointments and financial losses because they believed in someone who should have done better homework. Or who should have said something (anything!) about something they know of the general situation when it comes to cars that are presented as something they are not.

A general cautionary note: BE CAREFUL! DO YOUR HOMEWORK!
iicarJohn is offline  
post #28 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-17-2013, 10:54 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,211
"I did not call anyone a "sucker"."
Don't beer it in mind John.Just teasing

The Sportiva Coupe, is for me an all time design from Scaglioni. And in my mind anyone my call me a sucker, if I had the opportunity. To drive around in that design.
I am fully aware, what you mean, by the word, and the correlations, in witch you used it. And in that connection I fully sanction the use of the word.

Regarding the special engine in aluminium cast. That was my expectation. The Disco Volante engine. But I cant find any reff, to an aluminium engine.
But time has elapsed since, 1954-55. So there can have been necessary to do some alteration.
The car Sanesi drove, at Vermicino - Rocca di Papa 8 May 1955.Does that resemblance any of the photos in this tread. I don't have that book.
2000 touring sp is offline  
post #29 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-17-2013, 06:50 PM
Registered User
 
tubut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 9,133
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp View Post
We are in 1955. It is time to plan an replacement for the 1900 models.
Yes. Busso mentions in his book that the Alfa decided in 1955 to build a 6-cylinder engine with about 2.5 liter displacement (that should have had some synergies with Giulietta production), which later went into production as the 106 series 2600 engine. In 1957, the 5-speed transmission was developed, clearly with this 6-cylinder engine in mind (no wonder its basic design made it into the 105 series in the 1960s and survived until the 1970s).

I believe the 102 series 2000 engine was a substitute for this 6-cylinder engine because either the development of the 106 engine took longer than expected (Busso points out that the 102 cars were too heavy for the 2000 engine; others reported problems of 106 flywheels breaking off on the engine stand at high RPM) and/or that it may have been too expensive for production. In fact, I have a hunch the design/engineering/production problems were never completely solved, that the 106 engine may have never reached its design goals and that it was de-tuned for production. This may have been indirectly confirmed by the fact that none of the 2600 high-speed prototypes reached 200 km/h in 1962 (not enough power and/or not high enough RPM for the weight of these cars).

To the best of my knowledge, the 106 engine seems to be the only over-square engine Alfa built during that time (1950s) except for the 1952-54 Tipo 160 race engine prototype. But that's a discussion for another thread. I was always interested in finding out if any of the 2000 Sportiva engine technology was further developed and used in 1900, 102 or 106 engines. But I have not found any evidence or confirmation of such things yet.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]

Last edited by tubut; 04-18-2013 at 03:14 AM.
tubut is online now  
post #30 of 38 (permalink) Old 04-18-2013, 02:00 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 171
There seems to be confusion regarding this drawing. This drawing of Sportiva models shows the development of just one car which started life a Coupe and ended up as the well known Barchetta. So no design exercises but the evolution of one car after study of the historic photographs available.
Attached Images
 
Boudewijn is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome