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post #61 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-28-2007, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini View Post
Quick translation:
It was decided it insist for the moment on 3500. It is not easy for obtain from Satta that the loom, to framework, ridisegnato came from the mine; decisive was the support than Hruska gave to my request. The execution of the loom prototype had entrusted at the GILCO and for the carriage itself scelse the Touring; all that happened at December of 1953.
Yech -- This translation is even worse than my Italian!
Here's how I read the significant portion of the text:

Quote:
It was not easy for me to obtain from Satta that the chassis, a lattice, came redesigned from mine; decisive was the support that Hruska gave to my request.
I have a hunch that the meaning of the first clause may go as far as:
"It was difficult to get Satta to admit that the chassis design was changed from mine."
but my Italian is not good enough to be sure about that -- especially when it comes to understanding Busso.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]

Last edited by tubut; 05-28-2007 at 07:02 PM.
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post #62 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-28-2007, 07:36 PM
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Abarth Chassis

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubut View Post
Yech -- This translation is even worse than my Italian!
Here's how I read the significant portion of the text:



I have a hunch that the meaning of the first clause may go as far as:
"It was difficult to get Satta to admit that the chassis design was changed from mine."
but my Italian is not good enough to be sure about that -- especially when it comes to understanding Busso.
Ruedi, your translation is far better than mine....I'd have to do it the dictionary by word method and I'm not up to it. Pat could sit and read and translate at the same time. Oh, where is that DSL to heaven when we need it, although, I'm sure there are some other competent translators on the bb.

FWIW, this is the Babelfish translation from Italian to English of that paragraph, and I'd say you came darn close with "lattice" and the meaning or interpretation since "attice" makes no sense:

Quote:
It was decided to insist for the moment on the 3500. It was not easy for me to obtain from Satta that the chassis, to attice, came redesigned from mine; decisive it was the support that Hruska gave to my demand. The execution of the chassis prototype was entrusted to the GILCO and for the carrozza the Touring was chosen; all that happened to December of 1953.

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(Not an authority nor SME on anything, just PATSYF)
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post #63 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-29-2007, 05:56 AM Thread Starter
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Ok, if you are using the wide interpretation on Disco Volante, its open for interpretations, whom, where, when build the chassis.
My statement was on the Disco Volante, in the narrow sense. Namely the one that is pictured in the first post.
To my knowledge its pure Touring
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post #64 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-29-2007, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp View Post
Ok, if you are using the wide interpretation on Disco Volante, its open for interpretations, whom, where, when build the chassis.
My statement was on the Disco Volante, in the narrow sense. Namely the one that is pictured in the first post.
To my knowledge its pure Touring
Than I must disagree. It is my belief that the only part of the C52s created by Touring was the coachwork.
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post #65 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-29-2007, 09:32 AM Thread Starter
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Ok, then I think that we can agree, that we disagree
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post #66 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-29-2007, 09:34 AM
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Perhaps?

Perhaps, if someone were to post the original Busso text as it reads, with some of the earlier text as some explanation of the context in which the brief passage was made, I could have a go at a meaningful and contextual translation. I am not at home to look it up for myself, if I even have it in the original. My Italian is certainly not perfect, but I've been told that it is perhaps better than I think it is. It is good enough to recognize that some Italians do not speak Italian correctly and also good enough to sit and analyze my own utterances after the fact and realize that I could have said some things much more correctly or clearly. And it is possible that my Italian is not quite good enough to be of any real help? Ultimately, what we would like to do is communicate, and that ultimate desire is sometimes lost when we attempt to become too precise in translations. Some words and concepts do not translate precisely without adding important context. Sometimes that context comes from something that is not conveyed by words alone.

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry

Last edited by iicarJohn; 05-29-2007 at 09:50 AM.
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post #67 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-29-2007, 10:36 AM
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The problem with stating anything as fact is that even if all the people involved were still living, each one would probably have a different perception of exactly who was responsible and who was in charge of various aspects of the project.

History is ultimately, an individuls perception and story, based on their personal agenda. In the case of the origins of the 125 Ferrari for example, we still have various accounts as to who ultimately designed the car; Busso or Colombo.

In this case, based on what I have read from various sources, it appears to me that the C-52 was an Alfa project, with the basic design and development done in house, with consultation by Touring and Gilco.
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post #68 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-29-2007, 10:37 AM
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One problem with Busso's book is that bits and pieces of infomation pertaining to a specifric car or design are strewn over various chapters (and I agree that there seem to be conflicting recollections of various people involved in these projects).

I read through the 6C3000 CM thread again and found this post with a good summary and translation of Busso's comments on the Disco and Disco chassis, where the above mentioned passage is translated as follows:
Quote:
It was decided to insist with the 3500. It was not easy for me to convince Satta to have the chassis redesigned by my men. Hruska played a decisive role as he supported my request. The building of a prototype chassis was entrusted to GILCO, and for the bodywork we hired Touring. All that happened in December, 1953. The cost of a multitubular chassis would have been high, and production would not have gone beyond a few dozen. We then started thinking of something smaller, both for engine capacity and complexity, possibly coming back to the old scheme of a chassis with main side tubes.”
The redesign seems to refer to the C-52 chassis which, according to Stu, Colombo may have designed. Since this has already been discussed in great detail in the 6C3000 CM thread, I see no need to repeat and rehash the whole thing here again. In my opinion, it would be more interesting to bring the thread back on topic with respect to the the Alfa - Abarth relationship. My bringing up Busso in post #54 above was merely to say that it can be infered from Busso's book that Abarth had nothing to do with the Disco.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]

Last edited by tubut; 05-29-2007 at 10:49 AM.
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post #69 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-29-2007, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
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"It was decided to insist with the 3500. Year 1953"
I would suppose this is concerning the Spider 6C3000 PR on short chassis that was crassed before it had its debut
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post #70 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-23-2007, 01:57 AM
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Colani-Abarth Alfa

A few photos of the Colani-Abarth car mentioned in earlier posts which I took at the Bonhams auction, Goodwood, at the end of August. It attracted a lot of interest but didn't sell on the night because it didn't have the right papers (whatever that means).
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post #71 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-23-2007, 02:11 AM
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Chassis and suspension photos. I couldn't find anyone to open up the bonnet, so no engine pics unfortunately.
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post #72 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-23-2007, 09:33 AM
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Abarth Chassis / Auction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex View Post
A few photos of the Colani-Abarth car mentioned in earlier posts which I took at the Bonhams auction, Goodwood, at the end of August. It attracted a lot of interest but didn't sell on the night because it didn't have the right papers (whatever that means).
Thanks, for the beautiful pictures of the car. I will let someone more knowlegeable decide if it is really as labeled, based on what I've written below. That statement is not a reflection on the poster just a basic knowledge of how Abarths more than Alfas can be misidentified and fraudulently represented.

As far as not selling because "it didn't have the right papers," it could mean a lot of things, like the title wasn't clear, taxes are owed on the car, it was illegally imported, there is a suspicion of fraud or that the title has been doctored in some way, the seller didn't get what he wanted and that was an easy way to pull the car etc.

It's amazing the cars that make it to auction and the sale is never finalized because the deal is unwound after the auction due to something that has been discovered or misprepresented in some way by the seller, the auction house etc. e.g. the car never existed and it's proven after the fact, as an example. While I'm sure there have been many others and probably since, the Alfa I remember in this category was auctioned at Amelia Island for some astronomical price at the time and it was later discovered that the car was a fraud, the deal unwound, and it was sold outside of the auction for a much lower price, as an acknowledged fraud, which it was.

Cheryl
(Not an authority nor SME on anything, just PATSYF)

Last edited by Pat Braden; 09-23-2007 at 09:37 AM.
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post #73 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-27-2007, 11:15 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you Alex for the beautiful pictures. A very unique design and car.
The problems with the papers can be related to, that this car should have been build from 2 Abarth 1000 cars, that should have been crashed on Avus during test. There was 3 Abarth build, and only one exist to day. There has been an article in Het K about these cars.
Maybe someone know the hole story.
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post #74 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-27-2007, 04:43 PM
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The design of this car is a thing of beauty.

Pity about the sloppy detail evident as overspray and drips under the car and what looks like electrical tape fixing something to the chassis there. Makes me wonder what shape this car is really in.
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post #75 of 109 (permalink) Old 09-27-2007, 08:16 PM
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