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post #46 of 109 (permalink) Old 04-19-2007, 10:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Pat Braden View Post
On Al Cosentino, are you referring to the So Cal Convention a month before Pat died or the previous one? Whichever, you have seen him more recently than I have. The last time I saw and listened to him berate Pat for his "horrible" Abarth book and how he had stolen it from him was at Laguna Seca probably 10 years ago or more and Fumiko was not with him. The exchange was so heated that Pat pushed me back and out of the way and stepped back to get out from within his reach or swing. I believe I had heard that Al and Fumiko had divorced. I always wondered how she could be so blind and I have to assume it was cultural and because she didn't know any better.

On Norb McNamara, the last I heard from Pat several years before Pat's death was that Norb was quite ill and to the point that Sabra was having trouble taking care of him. So it would not surprise me if the Abarth was sold and not fully restored. I'm not sure if Norb is still living or not either. As I recall, Norb also owned the Abarth Periscopio when Pat was writing the Abarth book.

On the two tone marroon/red and white Abarth Spider Boano, somewhere I have a picture of the owner's little boy, about 5 or 6, holding Kay, as a baby, in that car in the driver's seat when Pat interviewed the father. I don't remember his name or the location other than it was in California, kind of off the beaten path and it was kind of deserty.

In trying to share and add information I some how feel that I have just escalated the price of that particular car now that it is tied to the Braden name. It will not be the first car that has garnered extra prestige and money simply because of that, however, this one is more rare than the others. If I unintentionally, skewed the market in that regard, I apologize, that was not my intent.
There is no way I could afford the car in today's market, no matter if you escalated the price or not. Today is is a $250,000 car or more, once fully restored. As to Cosentino, the is the only person on the face of the earth I consider crazier than a certain Belgian
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post #47 of 109 (permalink) Old 04-19-2007, 11:28 PM
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Here is a quick photoshop job to put the two halves together on the Braden car!
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post #48 of 109 (permalink) Old 04-20-2007, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by dretceterini View Post
As to Cosentino, ...
I think Al is still out there somewhere. Sometimes trying to sell stuff at ebay.
A link :
http://www.italysfamousexhausts.com/
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post #49 of 109 (permalink) Old 04-20-2007, 06:31 AM
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Abarth Chassis

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Originally Posted by alfa2go View Post
Here is a quick photoshop job to put the two halves together on the Braden car!
Thanks.....as I indicated a "very" poor placement choice even if you're reading the book.

Cheryl
(Not an authority nor SME on anything, just PATSYF)
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post #50 of 109 (permalink) Old 04-20-2007, 08:14 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Pat Braden View Post
On Al Cosentino, are you referring to the So Cal Convention a month before Pat died or the previous one?
I believe it was 2000. The Concorso Italiano trip I was speaking of was 1998.
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post #51 of 109 (permalink) Old 04-26-2007, 06:48 AM Thread Starter
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Just to complete the pictures. We where missing a picture of the Alfa Romeo 750 Competizione designed by Boano. Abarth build the chassis and it was originally planned 50, but only a few was build.

Just a few comments to the articles from Pat Braden post 41.
The Madrid Grand prix: At that time the cars was not running on standard fuel. Every car manufacturer had there own mixture. To be orderly prepared for the Madrid Grand Prix, Abarth had prepared the fuel mix from home just to do the up most, as for the business, new car, it was an important event.
Unfortunately had some of the high octane evaporated in the high temperatures during the transport, and the new 205 was completely outclassed by competitors.

After the Abarth Bertone 1000, the business relation between Abarth and Fiat changed. Up to that period Abarth could by complete chassis mounted with wheel, brakes, suspension, steering and engine with gearbox. But after this period, Fiat open up for Abarth to pick any parts he want to use. And with this new situation he made his own cylinder head the Bialbero, for use on Fiat cylinder blocks.
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post #52 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-17-2007, 07:06 PM
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The Scan That Opened This Thread

Returning to the scan that opened this thread ... which was from the magazine, Sports Cars Illustrated. The caption under the Disco photo was in error then, and is still in error now. Not unlike a lot of errors in print that have been accepted as some kind of truth.

For books and magazines, it is important to remember that the people who do layouts often know absolutely nothing about the material they are working on. They are often "art" people who are into the graphics rather than the content. When deadlines loom, they are sometimes the last buffer that separates the authors and editors from the product, and they don't always know enough to get it right, even if the authors and editors might have. And it is certainly rare that these "art people" might know enough to correct mistakes.

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post #53 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-27-2007, 12:09 PM
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Abarth Chassis

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Originally Posted by dretceterini View Post
Ok, the car IS the 1953 Abarth/Ghia 1100...but I never knew Pat owned it. Pat identifying is as an A205 is incorrect. The only A205 is the Vignale bodied car, which I posted a link to a photo of it earlier in the thread.

I am trying to find where the Abarth/Ghioa 1100 is now, as I understand Norb McNamara sold it before the restoration was finished. I last saw the car at Concorso Italaino in 1998, and the restoration was about 50% done.

The car just above the CEAT tire ad is one of the versions of the Abarth A204 spider.
In an attempt to add clarification to those reading this thread who may not have read the other referenced thread below, I hope this may help explain why and how Pat identified the Abarth, Ghia-bodied car we owned as he did, I've transferred the following post from the thread shown below:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/show...+Braden&page=2

dealing with other "Italian Cars." While the identification and categorization may be considered incorrect or suspect by some, I feel that when the process to determination is considered with the data available Pat's designation was not totally incorrect because the car was identified by the 205 chassis that the car was actually built on. Ftr, I see no indication that Pat identified this questioned car in the text as an A205 as Stu indicates above in his post, only that it was identified as a 205.

If I've coded it correctly you should also see the original poster's signature. Thank you, John, for your help in clarifying how the designation was arrived at for this Ghia-bodied Abarth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iicarJohn
With apologies to Norb McNamara ...
________________________________________
I have received credible information from "Pat Braden" that the "Abarth 103" Ghia car did indeed have an Abarth "205" chassis number assigned to it. Thank you, Cheryl! I should have known this all along, I suppose, as it was recorded in the Pat Braden & Greg Schmidt Abarth book, but I overlooked it. The somewhat surreptitious manner in which Norbert McNamara shared the information with me made me doubt the veracity of his claim. That was a mistaken impression on my part. Sorry Norb! I have revised paragraph seven of the post #16 in this thread. It would seem that five cars received "205" chassis numbers and the "Abarth 103" was the fourth in the series, bearing chassis number "205-104".

Best regards.

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry
[email protected]

Cheryl
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post #54 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-27-2007, 11:26 PM
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Busso talking about Alfa Romeo - Abarth relationship

Giuseppe Busso wrote the following in the foreword of Marcello Minerbi's book "Alfa Romeo-Zagato SZ TZ" (this is the English translation from the book; the the original Italian text may emphasize certain events differently):
Quote:
The TZ1 is the result of the evolution of the concept of a 1500cc racing car that dates back to 1955 that is even before the SZ.
This concept first developed through collaboration between Alfa Romeo and Abarth-Boano on a box-type sheet metal chassis conceived by Abarth. The car was built as a roadster and tested, but due to technical problems which came to light during the tests, Alfa gradually lost interest in it. The idea was picked up again by Abarth at the start of 1958.
Abarth was then aiming at a coupé 1000 with Alfa mechanics and Bertone body, with a tubular chassis developed by Alfa, which was necessary to compensate for the lack of rigidity of the one in sheet metal.
This second Alfa-Abath-Bertone stage soon came up against difficulties - mainly caused by problems of cost.
However, the car was presented by Abarth at the 1958 Turin Motor Show and I remember it went down very well.
In an attempt to solve the problem of costs Abarth asked to be able to use the 1300 engine.
I recall that he didn't get an immediate "no" from Alfa so we collaborated with Abarth intensely up to the end of 1959.
In these two periods, the times I and Mario Colucci, my chassis expert, rushed backwards and forwards between Milan and Turin were countless. And, alas, one evening I came back alone - Colucci had been caught by Abarth.
It was undoubtedly his fortune because he soon became one of the people who counted most for Abarth, and he had a long and brilliant career there. The job of looking after the chassis passed immediately into the hands of another valuable designer of mine, Zava, another person who has been mentioned very little, I'm sorry to say, and the same goes for another engine designer, Villa.
After leaving Alfa Romeo, these two acted as valuable consultants for Autodelta and Euroracing.
I seem to remember that Abarth didn't stop at taking Colucci away from me. He was probably the one who tried the same trick with with other good workers of mine, Genta and Ceccherini.
This time I managed to ward off the blow by getting counterproposals for the two from Alfa Romeo.
I don't know whether by doing this I did the best thing, but I definetly kept at Alfa Romeo two valuable people.
In Busso’s book “Nel cuore dell Alfa”, he first writes about Abarth on page 90, which relates to the year 1958 (I leave translation to others with better knowledge of Italian) :
Quote:
Abarth, dopo l’insuccesso del suo telaio per la 750 Competizione, ritorna all’ attacco proponendo che a disegnare il telaio questa volta fossimo noialtri. La proposta non era male perché un telaio che, a nostro avviso, non poteva essere che a traliccio di tubi, ci avebbre consentito, dopo la volta infelice della 6C 3000 PR, di riprovarci. La cosa prese corpo rapidamente; a disegnare il traliccio toccó a Mario Colucci. Si cominciò in marzo; al momento Abarth non riuscì a ottenere dell’Alfa che l’autorizzazione per una cilindrata di 1000 cm³, ma lui non dubrivata di riuscire a smuovere la direzione per qualcosa di più se l’operazione, per la uale intendeva valersi della collaborazione do Bertone, avesse avuto il successo che lui si attendeva, L’Alfa Abarth riuscì addirittura a essere presentata al Salone di Torino in ottobre, con indubbio successo, ma una volta ancora il problemo dei soldi, che diede luogo a grossi bisticci fra Abarth e Bertone, soffocò nella culla quella bella creatura. Bilancio negative per tutti tranne che per Mario Colucci; Abarth, che aveva avuto modo in quell’occasione di apprezzare la grande capacità tecnica del mio allievo, non trovò di meglio che portarmelo via; bella fregatura per l’Alfa e per me, ma splendida occasione per il ragazzo di avviarsi su una strada che lo avebbre portato a notevoli successi.
While Busso doesn't directly answer the question that started this thread "Can anybody confirm the info, that the Disco Volante used an Abarth frame?", I believe its worthwhile to point out that Busso doesn’t talk about Abarth in the context of the Disco Volante at all but he does confirm that Alfa in 1955 experimented with a "box-type sheet metal chassis conceived by Abarth." The 1955 date contradicts the claim on p.42 of Sports Cars that "Disco Volante could not have been built on any other frame."

The way I read Busso's comments, I get the impression he doesn’t seem to express a lot of confidence regarding the quality or sophistication of frames designed by Abarth and that he believed Alfa's engineers (specifically Mario Colucci) were much better at frame design than Abarth.

BTW, I wish I would have read earlier Busso's comments about TZ protoypes going back to 1955 so that they could have been included in the Asardo thread that was deleted at some point.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]

Last edited by tubut; 05-27-2007 at 11:50 PM.
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post #55 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-28-2007, 06:28 AM Thread Starter
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Thank Tubut interesting info.
Regarding the copy of the article about Disco should be on a Abarth chassis. I was in doubt when posting, and had difficulties in believing it, but the are so many info around, and the cooperation's between the companies here short after the war, was at a level that is not described, so I find every bit of info interesting.
IcarJohn stated the same opinion ,thanks.
The Alfa Romeo 750 Competizione (post 51) is the one that Busso referees to at the predecessor for the TZ. I personally have difficult to believe that is the trough. Maybe the idée for the TZ sprung from the Competizione, but this cars is build on total different philosophy. The engine on the Competizione is a long stroke with a geometry that resembles Alfa design philosophy pre war. The TZ is a development based on Giulietts engine. The chassis design is completely diff. with a box frame for the Competizione and tubes for the TZ.
As I se it ,the TZ is clearly bases Zagato design philosophy inherited from the SVZ-SZ, and there is in my mind no Abarth in it.

Regarding Abarth there is maybe an interesting thing. Abarth did personally test every chassis and car before it was delivered to customers. He didn't relay on his employee in that connection.
This changed completely after Colucci joined Abarth. In the new period. Carlo Abarth didn't find it necessary, to personally test the cars anymore
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post #56 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-28-2007, 09:33 AM
 
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I am not sure who actually assembled the Disco chassis, but I would bet that the tubing was suppied by Gilco. I would tend to think they were designed "in house"; perhaps with some consultation with Gilco.

If Alfa ever built some sort of experimental chassis using sheet and box construction rather than tubes, I have never seen any photos. I do believe, however, that the Abarth designed and built 1900 Alfa with Ghia coachwork has this type of chassis, whereas the Alfa 1900 with a very similar body has a standard 1900 chassis.
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post #57 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-28-2007, 12:25 PM Thread Starter
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I am sorry Stu, but I think you are on a wrong track, trying to connect Touring with Gilco. The type of chassis used by Touring for the Disco, is totally different to the way Gilco build his chassis. So I think you are wrong on this.
I will give you right that box chassis was not the Alfa way of doing things. The only ones is those with Abarth origin. Abarth Ghia 2000 and the Alfa Romeo 750 Competizione
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post #58 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-28-2007, 01:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp View Post
I am sorry Stu, but I think you are on a wrong track, trying to connect Touring with Gilco. The type of chassis used by Touring for the Disco, is totally different to the way Gilco build his chassis. So I think you are wrong on this.
I will give you right that box chassis was not the Alfa way of doing things. The only ones is those with Abarth origin. Abarth Ghia 2000 and the Alfa Romeo 750 Competizione
I don't think Abarth or Touring had a thing to do with the design or construction of the chassis for the Discos. I am not connecting Touring and Gilco. I believe the Disco chassis were were built using Gilco produced tubing at Alfa, with perhaps some conultation from Gilco on the design.
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post #59 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-28-2007, 04:49 PM
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I don't want to re-hash much of what was said about the Disco Volante chassis in the 6C3000 CM thread, but would like to point out that Busso lays, at least in part, claim to the design of the Gilco chassis for the 6C 3000 using these words on p.82 of his book:
Quote:
Fu deciso d'insistere per il momento sulla 3500. Non fu facile per me ottenere da Satta che il telaio, a traliccio, venisse ridisegnato dai miei; decisivo fu l'appoggio che Hruska diede alla mia richiesta. L'esecuzione del telaio prototipo fu affidata alla GILCO e per la carrozza si scelse la Touring; tutto ciò avveniva a dicembre del 1953.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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post #60 of 109 (permalink) Old 05-28-2007, 05:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by tubut View Post
I don't want to re-hash much of what was said about the Disco Volante chassis in the 6C3000 CM thread, but would like to point out that Busso lays, at least in part, claim to the design of the Gilco chassis for the 6C 3000 using these words on p.82 of his book:

Quick translation:
It was decided it insist for the moment on 3500. It is not easy for obtain from Satta that the loom, to framework, ridisegnato came from the mine; decisive was the support than Hruska gave to my request. The execution of the loom prototype had entrusted at the GILCO and for the carriage itself scelse the Touring; all that happened at December of 1953.
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