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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-21-2006, 03:42 AM Thread Starter
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Giovanni Giordanengo

info from Classic Inside - The Classic Driver Newsletter [[email protected]]

Based on a Ferrari 250GT Pininfarina, the ‘recreated’ car is high quality homage to one of the most desirable convertibles ever made. Its estimate of EURO 285,000 - 320,000 represents a fraction of what a genuine car is worth (EURO 1m+...). Also in the sale is a similarly well-executed 1963 Ferrari 250GT Alloy Berlinetta in the style of a Short Wheelbase for EURO 240,000 - 250,000, and a 1995 Alfa Romeo TZ2 Replica at EURO 185,000 - 220,000, both the latter cars having been bodied by Giovanni Giordanengo of Cuneo, an expert ‘artisan’ well known for his exacting replicas of competition and road-going Ferraris and Alfa Romeos.

Does anyone have any info about this Giovanni Giordanengo of Cuneo , and of what he has been doing on Alfa Romeo replicas
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-21-2006, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp
info from Classic Inside - The Classic Driver Newsletter [[email protected]]

Based on a Ferrari 250GT Pininfarina, the ‘recreated’ car is high quality homage to one of the most desirable convertibles ever made. Its estimate of EURO 285,000 - 320,000 represents a fraction of what a genuine car is worth (EURO 1m+...). Also in the sale is a similarly well-executed 1963 Ferrari 250GT Alloy Berlinetta in the style of a Short Wheelbase for EURO 240,000 - 250,000, and a 1995 Alfa Romeo TZ2 Replica at EURO 185,000 - 220,000, both the latter cars having been bodied by Giovanni Giordanengo of Cuneo, an expert ‘artisan’ well known for his exacting replicas of competition and road-going Ferraris and Alfa Romeos.

Does anyone have any info about this Giovanni Giordanengo of Cuneo , and of what he has been doing on Alfa Romeo replicas
A lot of TZs; some of which have been tried to be passed off as real by various brokers. I think he has also done some T33 Stradales. His work is so good that it is hard to tell unless one is an expert, or has it side by side with a real car.
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-21-2006, 08:03 AM
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I am aware of this situation, i mean the replicas being sold as real cars but i wonder how this could be done beggining from the fact that there is a clear register of the model and every VIN is attributed to its own history and facts. I mean, how someone can sell a fake for example 750031 Alfa TZ given that the real 750031 is a known car with a clear history, papers and the owner is known? I might be off-topic and surely don't want to start anything but this is a question of many people out there. Could you clear this Stu?

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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-21-2006, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Tubolare Zagato
I am aware of this situation, i mean the replicas being sold as real cars but i wonder how this could be done beggining from the fact that there is a clear register of the model and every VIN is attributed to its own history and facts. I mean, how someone can sell a fake for example 750031 Alfa TZ given that the real 750031 is a known car with a clear history, papers and the owner is known? I might be off-topic and surely don't want to start anything but this is a question of many people out there. Could you clear this Stu?
The problem is that if you look at the Minerbi book, there are quite a few TZs that are listed as "history unknown".

All of a sudden, cars show up stamped with some of these missing S/Ns. In some instances, there are two cars existing today with the same S/N stamped!

Unless you have been following the TZs for years and are somewhat of an expert, it is difficult to tell which one is the real car, when the fake is of such high quality.

I can't prove anyone is deliberately making fakes, but when a car that has been "missing" for many years shows up all of a sudden......

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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-21-2006, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by dretceterini
I can't prove anyone is deliberately making fakes, but when a car that has been "missing" for many years shows up all of a sudden......
So the man who sells it cannot prove its originallity either given that there are no facts, no papers, no history. I would never buy such a car because it seems like a Russian roulette... "is it a replica or not?"
Thanks Stu!

Theo
Alfa Romeo 2000 GT Veloce, 22 July 1971, #1803
+ an Echidna into my mind...
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-23-2006, 07:24 AM
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This is from C&S December 2000:



I guess that helps a bit to understand what Giordanengo does
A pity that he didn't continue making coffins

Ciao Carlo
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-23-2006, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubolare Zagato
So the man who sells it cannot prove its originallity either given that there are no facts, no papers, no history. I would never buy such a car because it seems like a Russian roulette... "is it a replica or not?"
Thanks Stu!
Sadly, there are a lot of ways today to fake papers that say a car is real. It is very much "buyer beware".

What is funny to me is that Ferrari has set up a historic restoration division, but there are any number of Ferrari historians, such as Marcel Massini, that have forgotten more than the Ferrari factory will ever know, yet people are paying thousands to get a slip of paper that says their car is real from Ferrari! In some cases, cars have come out of the Ferrari facility in a state that any number of experts think is not totally correct!!!

Neither Maserati nor Alfa has not set up an official restoration program as yet, but based on what Ferrari has done, I think they eventually will. As is the case with Ferrari, there are some people out there that have forgotten more about the history of Maserati and Alfa than the factory will ever know.

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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-23-2006, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlo
This is from C&S December 2000:



I guess that helps a bit to understand what Giordanengo does
A pity that he didn't continue making coffins

Ciao Carlo

There are any number of legal battles going on in regard to what this, and similar quality restoration shops do. For the vast majority, it is almost imposible to tell if a car is real or fake, due to the quality of work being done today.

In many cases, people are trying to pass off "restored" or "recreated" cars as original, and Ferrari already has had cars confiscated and destroyed!!!

There are also people that have been charged with fakery, and Ferrari has been proven to be wrong!

The problems that shops like this present are mind boggling!

Be careful. Be VERY careful who you deal with....
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-23-2006, 02:13 PM
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Here is the TZ2 replica made by Giovanni Giordanengo. It will be for sale at the Padova AutoMoto d'Epoca show this weekend from Coys auction house. The estimated price is 185,000-220,000 Euros!



Tommaso Fiorillo started his career in the 1960's working for Sandrocar, a Florence based preparer of competition Alfa Romeos. Sandrocar worked directly in competition with Autodelta, the official competition arm and subsidiary of Alfa Romeo. After more than 3 decades experience preparing competition Alfa Romeo's Mr Fiorillo has become a world authority on these cars. He supplies parts for all of Alfa Romeo's competition models, TZ1, TZ2, GTA/M, 33 and has helped collectors prepare cars from as far away as Japan and the U.S.A.

Giovanni Giordanengo is a Cuneo based 'artigiano' renowned for his exacting replicas of competition and road going Ferraris and Alfa Romeos. It was he who was entrusted by Alfa Romeo with creating a sanction II series of the TZ2 much like Aston Martin did with their DB4 GT Zagato. Alfa Romeo's own museum car was supplied to Giordanengo for measurements. This project never went ahead but Giordanengo was approached by the owner of a real TZ2 to create an exacting copy: the car you see here today.

The tubular chassis and body panels were constructed by Giordanengo following exact measurements taken from 2 original cars including Alfa Romeos own museum example. The bare chassis and body were then supplied to Fiorillo who supplied all of the mechanical parts. A correct GTA dry sump engine was sourced. All of the special competition parts specific to this car were supplied by him , riveted fuel tank, adjustable suspension, steering box, interior, windscreen, steering wheel, sump, distributor to name but a few. The cast magnesium wheels where commissioned especially from the original manufacturers in conjunction with real TZ2 owners. The interior has been carefully recreated right down to the correct Jaeger period instruments. Care has been taken to create a machine that can also be used for the road, the engine is tractable at low revs, suspension is adjustable and the tyres have been carefully chosen to allow a degree of softness to absorb irregularities in the road.

This masterpiece is the product of 15 years painstaking work and is widely considered as the world's most exacting replica of this model. To recreate such a car today would cost way in excess of today's asking price and this fantastic recreation is no museum piece: it is on the button and ready to be enjoyed by its lucky new owner immediately.

http://www.coys.co.uk/auctions/lot.p...on=54&id=41751

Theo
Alfa Romeo 2000 GT Veloce, 22 July 1971, #1803
+ an Echidna into my mind...

Last edited by Tubolare Zagato; 10-23-2006 at 02:16 PM.
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-23-2006, 03:06 PM
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At about 1/4 to 1/3 the price of a real one, it will certainly sell. I wonder if someone will try to present this car as a real one 30 years from now, and get the same price a real one would fetch....never mind, the answer to that is certainly yes.....
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