VVT & rewriting history - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-31-2006, 09:46 AM Thread Starter
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VVT & rewriting history

Hi Everyone,
Wikipedia has an article on Variable Valve Timing... It starts out stating that GM was the early innovator of it in the mid 70s. The only mention of Alfa Romeo was mentionng that the Twin Spark engine utilized VVT. I think the spider engines started using a VVT about the same time they switched over to L-JetTronic (81-82???), but I thought that they were experimenting with a VVT in the early 70s, calling it "variatore di fase" or something to that effect.

My history knowledge in this area is lacking, but someone with more knowledge than me should edit the article to be more accurate (and more alfa-centric if need be ).

link the the article is here

go bravely with th0th
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-31-2006, 03:17 PM
 
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No vvt on spiders except series 4 (1990-1994) with 2.0 Motronic ML4.1.

Alfa vvt was also available 75 1.6 IE (107 bhp), 75 1.8 IE (122 bhp) and earlier in 1983 on Alfetta 2.0 Quadrifoglio Oro (Motronic ML2.1) 130 bhp.

Edit : and the 75 2.0 TS of course.

VVT on 155 1.7 TS, 1.8 TS and 2.0 TS (8V only) was a redesigned Fiat device. Again modified then on Fiat 16V engines since the 145 QV, 155 16V TS, 156 16V TS and so on...

Last edited by Broyax; 08-31-2006 at 03:20 PM.
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 08-31-2006, 05:53 PM
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It's my understanding that Alfa was the first to put VVT in a production vehicle. According to the parts books, the first Alfa VVT appeared on the 1980 USA version Spica FI equipped 2l Spider. I recall reading or hearing, but can't back it up, that Alfa sold their VVT technology to Honda in the mid-80s.

Jim

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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-01-2006, 07:27 AM
 
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Yes and Subaru bought the boxer engine to Alfa hahaha
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-01-2006, 08:22 AM Thread Starter
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Broyax: I understand that your latest post was an attempt at humor, but it was thwarted by your attempt at english ... were you trying to say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broyax
Yes and Subaru b<b>r</b>ought the boxer engine to Alfa hahaha
</center>or</center>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Broyax
Yes and Subaru bought the boxer engine <b>from</b> Alfa hahaha
Back to the original topic, I found the following from an old owner-alfa digest post...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussNeely
...It is my understanding, that the VVT intake cam came along with the
weird single butterfly on the last of the Spica cars in 1980 and 1981. Most
80 and 81 spiders have been modified with early parts, so if you open up one
today you may not find VVT intake cam.
All Bosch injected Alfa spiders definitely have the VVT intake cam.
From 82 to 84 / 85 the activation for the cam was centrifugal. Sometime in
1985, the factory fitted a solenoid to the front of the valve cover to
activate the intake cam. All intake cams advance from oil pressure, once
triggered by RPM or by the solenoid.
Alfa made a number of changes in about 1985. The VVT trigger is one
of them....

Ciao,
Russ Neely
Oklahoma City
This would seem to agree with papajam's statement, and contravene Broyax's statement that VVTs only existed on the S4s.

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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-01-2006, 08:38 AM
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I think indeed papajam is correct. The point is that Alfa developped the VVT as an attempt to cope with the emission laws in the US without loosing too much power and torque.

Broyax instead refers probably to the first application on European spiders, that kept being carburetted for much longer.
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-01-2006, 11:00 AM
 
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I don't know about Spica stuff.

In Europe, vvt was on Motronic bialbs only.
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-01-2006, 11:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by th0th
Broyax: I understand that your latest post was an attempt at humor, but it was thwarted by your attempt at english ... were you trying to say:



</center>or</center>



Back to the original topic, I found the following from an old owner-alfa digest post...



This would seem to agree with papajam's statement, and contravene Broyax's statement that VVTs only existed on the S4s.
I'm sorry for my very poor written english but I'm training err... learning !

"from" you're right
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-01-2006, 05:02 PM
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Bravo!! for your good sense of humor Broyax-I would hesitate to even TRY to send a French message-Merci pour votre courage
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-02-2006, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by th0th
Hi Everyone,
Wikipedia has an article on Variable Valve Timing... It starts out stating that GM was the early innovator of it in the mid 70s. The only mention of Alfa Romeo was mentionng that the Twin Spark engine utilized VVT.
My history knowledge in this area is lacking, but someone with more knowledge than me should edit the article to be more accurate (and more alfa-centric if need be ).

link the the article is here
I added couple of lines, someone could make it better and fix if there is errors.
That hemi artice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemi could say something also about Alfa and Peugeot GP cars. Someone who have better knowlegde could fix it.

-Antti: --ex Alfas:155 2.0 8V '92,155 2.0 16V '96,156 V6 '98,156 V6 '02
http://carpix.1g.fi/kuvat/carpix/
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-02-2006, 08:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adenzeno
Bravo!! for your good sense of humor Broyax-I would hesitate to even TRY to send a French message-Merci pour votre courage
Thank you
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-02-2006, 07:15 PM
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I remember reading in the `70s or thereabouts (when the cars were current )that Alfa was experimenting with VVT in the `70`s when the Alfetta Berlinas came out and that there were Alfetta Taxi`s in Milan that were used as a quiet proving ground for some of this technology.

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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-06-2006, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papajam
It's my understanding that Alfa was the first to put VVT in a production vehicle. According to the parts books, the first Alfa VVT appeared on the 1980 USA version Spica FI equipped 2l Spider. I recall reading or hearing, but can't back it up, that Alfa sold their VVT technology to Honda in the mid-80s.
I haven't heard of Honda buying VVT technology from Alfa. Honda developed it's own technology as explained here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VTEC

Rory S. Brown
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-07-2006, 07:43 AM
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Could be that I recalled incorrectly that it was Honda. But a Japanese manufacturer none the less.

Jim

Series 2 USA 1750 GTV (in Series 1 European clothing)
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-07-2006, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papajam
Could be that I recalled incorrectly that it was Honda. But a Japanese manufacturer none the less.
Probably Toyota- they, like everyone else besides Honda, uses a variable valve system that rotates the cam. BMW has recently gone farther to include variable lift to that, by moving the cam.

But Honda contiues to do their variable valve actuaction with a separate cam and an actuator that switches the rocker arm operation.

If you want some real firsts, I have a copy of some documentation from Don Black that shows that Alfa was experiementing with EFI back in the '30s (!). Basically, it was an electrical system that was similar in layout to a distributor, but could vary the lenght of time the switch was closed, and then direct that to an injector. Pretty cool stuff, and it was apparently very successful- IIRC, the car got way better gas milage on the test they ran. But then Alfa ran into WWII, and development stopped.

Another intersting read I have is an SAE paper from Don- explaining how Alfa was developing their own EFI system that was loosely based on the SPICA mechanical injection. Pretty cool set up, sadly, Alfa was very cash strapped in the late 70's, early 80's, and had to buy Bosch's system. Alfa did know of the real benefits of fuel injection, but it was just too expensive to fit all of the cars in Europe with the very expensive SPICA (relative to Webers/Dellortos) when the benefit vs. need was questionable.

It was both good and bad that Alfa was a state owned entity... Could do some more creative engineering, but money was always a problem.
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