Scans of Fusi's Production Numbers (from "Tutte le Vetture dal 1910") - Page 4 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #46 of 78 (permalink) Old 02-21-2011, 01:34 PM
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To which the only reply can be "well, of course".

As you know, I'm not even vaguely OCD about these things. That my car is pretty much "original" is primarily because the original engineering is good enough for me. The parts that aren't (FNM engine and Dayton wheels) are easily replaceable with OEM units. I just think the original 2-litre engine is underpowered, and of the 165X400 tires, well the less said the better.

My previous post was probably redundant. Alfa records are chaotic. Storico probably no better than others. People will worship their idols, I suppose.

I'm satisfied that my car is probably a 59. Both Storico and Fusi say it is, and serial 77 seems to fall about right. However, I don't think I have any of the original data plates. I bought virgin unstamped plates from Christian, so now I have to figure out what to stamp into the firewall plate.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #47 of 78 (permalink) Old 03-16-2011, 09:12 AM
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RHD 109 Ti Engine numbers?

Hi
Please help - some of my spare engines doesn't appear on Fusi's list. (no real surprise). Can anyone date them?
Engine numbers:
AR 109 01450
AR 109 03247
AR 109 03936


13&26 Model T's, 58 Sprint, 58 Spider Veloce, 60 &61 Ti RHD's, 62 Sprint Veloce
68 1750 Spider RHD's(x3), 72 Junior Zagato, 78 2.0 Spider, 2000 BMW MCoupe

Last edited by monstar; 03-26-2011 at 03:58 PM.
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post #48 of 78 (permalink) Old 03-16-2011, 09:20 AM
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According to the list, there were 995 1970 spiders built for the US market. I have been given a lot of grief for saying I had a 70 spider by people who say there werent any. WHY?
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post #49 of 78 (permalink) Old 03-16-2011, 02:40 PM
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According to Wille R, Swedish Spider guro, these are the figures for 1750 Spiders - Round Tail and Kamm Tail:
- - Rondtail 1967-1970, Kamm tail 1969-1974
1967 854 LHD 1st May 67 Ch No 105.57.141.0001-0854
1968 18 LHD Ch. 0855-0872?
- 209 RHD 1st UK = Mar 68 Ch No 105.58.147.0001-0209
259 USA 1st USA = 68 Ch No 105.62.148.0001-0259
1969 914 LHD last roundtail 69 Ch No 105.57.141.1787
Grand total 1750 Veloce roundtails 3254
1st Kamm-tail -69 Ch No 105.57.1820001 Ch. 0873?-1787
- 285 RHD Ch. 0210-0495
1146 USA Ch. 0260-1405
1970 657 LHD Ch. 1788-2444
1 RHD last UK roundtail Jul 70 Ch No 105.58.1470674 Ch. 0495-0497
- 1426 USA Ch. 1406-2831
1971 596 LHD last = 105.57.1413036 Ch. 2445-3036
- 138 RHD 1st UK Kamm-tail = Apr 71 Ch No 105.58.1835001
last UK = Feb 72 Ch No 105.58.1235197 Ch. 0498-0632
- 1211 USA Ch. 2832-4042
1972 7 USA last USA = 72 Ch No 105.62.1484050
- - Ch. 4043-4050
TOTAL 4039 LHD
633 RHD
4049 USA
See more here: http://hem.passagen.se/veloce/buy1.htm
However, there are some mistakes like the total numbers of LHD models, the stated total is about 1000 units more than the count and total of each year production.
Re the 105.62 US version, it is said/written that no 1970 model year were build (due to updating the Spica injection system), so the 1426 build in 1970 probably all were 1971 model year; maybe build toward the end of 1970. My own 1970 105.57 LHD euro has no. 178 of the 657 build and was build on September 2 1970. 105.57 didn't have Spica, so maybe just due to unsold stock of Round Tail models.
Many in Europe considder 1970 Spiders being Round Tails - in the UK the Kamm Tails models wasn't introduced until 1971.
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post #50 of 78 (permalink) Old 03-16-2011, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfacliff View Post
According to the list, there were 995 1970 spiders built for the US market. I have been given a lot of grief for saying I had a 70 spider by people who say there werent any. WHY?
Simply because there were no 1970 model year USA Spiders. The Roundtails built in 1970 were sold as 1969 model year vehicles. So your 10562 Roundtail is a 1969. The build year is irrelevant.

Jim

Series 2 USA 1750 GTV (in Series 1 European clothing)
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post #51 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-24-2011, 05:51 AM
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Question Production Totals

Does anyone have a simple graph (or the data for a graph) of the production totals for Alfa throughout its history?

Something like the graph below for SAAB found here: http://www.saabhistory.com/blog/wp-c...les_specs1.jpg

I was wondering how ALFA's various owners (Ing. Nicola Romeo & C, IRI, FIAT) have affected production.
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post #52 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-24-2011, 10:26 AM
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The graphs are in the book

Quote:
Originally Posted by MALDI View Post
Does anyone have a simple graph (or the data for a graph) of the production totals for Alfa throughout its history?

Something like the graph below for SAAB found here: http://www.saabhistory.com/blog/wp-c...les_specs1.jpg

I was wondering how ALFA's various owners (Ing. Nicola Romeo & C, IRI, FIAT) have affected production.
Hello Maldi,

The graphs are in the Fusi book 'Alfa Romeo Tutte le vetture dal 1910'. Maybe somebody made scans of them?

Ciao, Olaf

Olaf Roeten a.k.a. Zagato_Olaf, Bussum, The Netherlands
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post #53 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-24-2011, 01:59 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Zagato_Olaf View Post
Hello Maldi,

The graphs are in the Fusi book 'Alfa Romeo Tutte le vetture dal 1910'. Maybe somebody made scans of them?

Ciao, Olaf
The graphs in Fusi's book are grouped by model type, not cumulative as in the Saab graph (see example of Giulia graph below, which are the largest production volume). The production numbers listed above contain the same information in numeric form. In my opinion, a break-down by model results in too many graphs to post here.
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-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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post #54 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-26-2011, 11:36 AM
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Fusi & Chassis number versus VIN number

All caveats apply to any use of the words "always" and "never".

Some confusion has been expressed on this thread about discrepancies between chassis numbers and VIN numbers. In general you will find that Alfa Romeo ALWAYS identifed their cars by the chassis number during a sale but sometimes the engine number would be listed as well. The same is generally true of most customs documents during exportation/importation but we cannot say "ALWAYS".

Anyone who looks at Fusi's charts with a bit of care can see some layout errors that are evident. This was probably due to typographer error but in today's world, they might be thought of as "copy-paste" errors that remained that remained that remained as the result of poor editing. Additionally, Fusi's charts (and others that come later) try to simplify the appearance of production into numerically contiguous segments and this was generally not what actually happened during production, particularly for the cars that were more "hand-made".

One can conceive of Fusi looking at Alfa Romeo records for December 31 of one year and January 1 of the following year and writing down what was implied by the numbers that appeared on that one day. If he had checked more carefully into the earlier week(s) and later week(s), he might have noticed that there were a considerable number of anomalies. Since he probably noticed some of these, it may be that he did not feel it was terribly important? It may be that he was not aware that we would take this stuff so seriously and so literally?

I believe the charts compiled by Fusi (and others) are useful as a general guide but you might find any one car (or grouping of cars) that could be an exception to the generalizations implied by any generalized charts. As with many references, the information presented is a starting point. More reliable information may come from other sources. The difficulty is that "other sources" may not be as convenient. And, while some information has undoubtedly been lost, if your car has actual evidence remaining, it may be that the most important "record" survives!

Museo Storico records are more specific about each individual car (where records survive) but it is unreasonable to think that there would be absolutely no errors. When faced with an apparent error, one should ask again for the data to be double-checked. It is easy to read information from an adjacent line in a ledger. Imagine the worker who is recording the data in the first place. Some of this clerical work was done almost certainly by someone(s) who perhaps had no personal insight into the actual production work? It is easy to conceive of the possibility that data was entered while someone was working rather too automatically? When it comes down to it, we have no way of knowing how many times the ledger was transcribed and therefor how many times there were possibilities for errors to be inserted.

If the evidence in your car is different than what is recorded by the record, then document what you find and live with it. But, it is always possible that "original paint" might have been obscured by new paint that was organized by a dealer in order to make a sale. It can be that "original paint" has no historical significance to a specific car. When it comes to production cars made in more than minimal numbers, I think it may be important to learn what was original but it is perhaps less important to stick with it during a restoration ... unless you happen to find that you have the only car that was painted "Bullscat Brown". As far as I am concerned, a repainted car is no longer original ... and that is often (but not always) a good thing.

Once a car was sold to a private owner, it needed to be registered as property of that owner, primarily in order to assign legal liability, establish some basis for taxation and become licensed for use on the road ... unless it was always intended to be a race car. Discussing road cars can get confusing from day 1 of a car's private life because different agencies used differing methods for establishing VIN numbers and dates of origin.

In Italy, a car was given a Certificate of Origin (Certificato di Origine = Cd'O) that acted as an official birth certificate. It could be assigned by the builder or by some other authorized entity. There were many authorized issuers of these documents but the result is that there was a specific day on which a car first existed as a legal entity. (This is not the place to discuss some confused instances in which a car was used before a Cd'O was assigned or had an earlier Cd'O that was replaced by another.) This Cd'O was used to generate legal paperwork and, in Italy it ALWAYS used the chassis number as the identity of the car. If no acceptable chassis number was found by some inspector during the car's life, then a number might be assigned and ONLY THEN might an engine number become repeated on the chassis (generally for older cars) with markings made to indicate that the chassis number had been assigned as a "Numero d'Ufficio". Every case is different when it comes to these sorts of numbering issues.

In the USA, we have had a hodge-podge of systems because each state had its own method of assigning VIN numbers. While it is tempting to think that the chassis number is always the VIN, this is not the case. For many years in the 1950's and 1960's (at a minimum), California and many other states defaulted to the engine number as the VIN simply because it seemed that the engine number could always be found whereas the chassis number often could not. The primary motivator for this apparently was that many early Fords had either no chassis number or had the number hidden once the body was installed. The problem with this system is that, if an owner changed the engine for any reason, it became legally desirable (if not legally mandatory) to change the recorded VIN. Regardless of any legal mandate, this VIN change was often not made at the time of an engine change. In some cases, where chassis and engines had matching numbers when new, the VIN became the chassis number by accident only once the orignally referenced engine was removed!

It may be important to remember that your car is probably most important to you. It is no longer as important as it once was to the former owners. It has probably not been individually important to Alfa Romeo once it left its warranty period. Nor is it important as an individual to the state in which you have it registered. You are probably the only person who truly cares how it should be known to the rest of us. So, if you wish for others to revise their records, it is you who will have to do the documentation and the bulk of the convincing. Aside from the fact that I am always gathering and updating records for these cars, it may be difficult to make anyone else care? There are procedures in place for correcting VIN numbers in most states. There may be no procedure for correcting records at Alfa Romeo, and in some ways, the original ledger should probably never be modified as it is a document that should remain as it is even though it is undoubtedly imperfect. We are lucky to have it as a resource, imperfect as it is. Some manufacturers cannot or will not report anything about what they did nor when.
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post #55 of 78 (permalink) Old 12-06-2012, 12:30 AM
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Fusi's job is surely "great" and heavy. Was the first.
Anyway there's another book, less expensive, written with best precision by Maurizio Tabucchi.
Don't know if it's still available. I own the italian version, "guida all'identificazione", but I remember an english version is done, "identification guide".
I found errors in Fusi's numbers about my ex 1750 GT Veloce ('71) chassis n. 0138etc. If you look, you can't find this number. It's a 1971 production car, as by Elvira Ruocco's (Archivio Storico) letter.
Recently was published a new D'Amico/Tabucchi job, in 2 books. But I suggest the Tabucchi "Identification guide" if you need good precision.
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post #56 of 78 (permalink) Old 03-27-2014, 12:01 AM
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I bought virgin unstamped plates from Christian, so now I have to figure out what to stamp into the firewall plate.

Don P, Can you please provide contact details for Christian. As you can see from my latest post on the Satta Special thread I have put incorrect info on the existing identification plate and need a new one to correct this.
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post #57 of 78 (permalink) Old 03-31-2014, 04:31 AM
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FUSI

...if anybody is looking for a FUSI, I have a firstedition in a very good condition and a second edition for sale.

Saluti da Germania

Ralph
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post #58 of 78 (permalink) Old 04-04-2014, 06:21 PM
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Please, for-sale notices should stay in the For Sale forum. Thank you.
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post #59 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 08:31 AM
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So are there any data for post-1972 cars in Tabucchi's book? What is the engine no that goes with AR 2201461 chassis ('73 1.6 Junior)?
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post #60 of 78 (permalink) Old 05-29-2014, 01:25 PM Thread Starter
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So are there any data for post-1972 cars in Tabucchi's book? What is the engine no that goes with AR 2201461 chassis ('73 1.6 Junior)?
Yes, the 1st edition of D'Amico & Tabucchi goes to 1996, and the 2nd edition goes to 2007. However, their information is based on the Alfa Romeo archive, while Fusi's information also included personal notes about engine number ranges. All that D'Amico & Tabucchi say about 105.03 cars for 1973 is that the chassis numberts range from 2198851 to 2202250 and that the engines should be tipo 00536.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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