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post #61 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-20-2005, 01:10 PM
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To add another thought, what was the realtion to the Sportiva motors?
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post #62 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-20-2005, 01:42 PM
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There was no relations between the Disco engine and the Sportive. The Sportive was pure 1900 with the cast ion block , as the block for the 6cyl
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post #63 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-20-2005, 04:08 PM Thread Starter
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What we really need is for an authority to pick up this Disco Volante thread and separate it from the original lost topic.
I want this bring this request back in memory.......

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First my excuse. I can be one of those gays that highjack this site
HA! It was you who brought us from the P3 1934 to the Disco Volantes, lol

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Indeed there are other forums, outside AlfaBB, attended by good people. I know even of some wishing they can one day complete a comprehensive book on the present topic
Good idea indeed
Even here in this thread, we gathered much more data and research than in most of what has been written about the DVs!

@Carter, refering to our discussion about breaks, I think that all mentioned facts together were the reason for the break troubles under racing conditions. Especially the combination of rear-axle and inboard breaks was responsible for overheating, not to forget the less effective materials that were used in these times!
Btw, your engine data input is very helpful indeed

Concering car #0128, many thanks for the pics
It makes me very sad to learn that something serious is wrong with the Pinin Farina Coupe
At the same time I am getting curious what's behind this story!

Please don't feel offended when I evaluate the four bodies of Pinin on this chassis as quite important concerning design.
The Duetto up to the latest version of the fastback Spider carried design elements, first seen on these PF creations.
We don't need to discuss about taste, no doubt.
And of course they were far away from the C52 Spider, but they belong at least to the "Disco family" in the widest sense
Honestly, I like them all

Refering to the Merano race, won by JMF....

I have the official program at hand.
Official name of the race: 1 Gran Premio Sport Merano
Held on 5th of September 1953.

Alfa Romeo S. A. entered the following cars:
#42 Luigi Grassi
#44 Mario Di Guiseppe
#46 Bruno Bonini
all on Alfa 3000CM

and
#68 Luigi Bellucci on the 2-litre narrow-sided Spider like GTV2000 mentioned.

The drivers on the 3-litre cars were Alfa Romeo test drivers.
I am not aware why Alfa didn't enter their works-driver
Anyway, Fangio was there and won. Further it is sure that Sanesi drove a 6C Coupe in practise, #42.
There is no reason mentioned why just JMF started.

#68 was not entered by Alfa Romeo, but by Bellucci himself.
In one of my previous posts, I mentioned that the narrow-sided Spider was used by different drivers in minor events.
As there were Carini, Musmeci and of course Bellucci.

Stu and Carter made me also curious about the cars seen at Tom Zat's workshop.... A pity that I never saw a picture of the (or these?) DV.
It is not a secret that there are some replicas existing.
How about this one

Meanwhile it's past 1 a.m. over here and I got to find some sleep soon

Good night and best wishes
Ciao Carlo
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post #64 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-20-2005, 06:49 PM
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Carlo:

As far as I am aware, everyone you mentioned in regard to the Merano race has now passed away. I'm not even sure if gaining access to the archives will give us some of the answers we still aren't certain about...
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post #65 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-21-2005, 04:17 AM
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A few replies / comments / additions:

Engines: historically, it is beyond doubt that the 6C3000 design was initiated and "completed" before the 4C1900, the first having been the priority development in 1948, when the smaller one was also planned, but as second priority. The 6C3000 engine was already ready when the management plans changed, dropped the 6C3000 car, and put all resources into the 1900. That was in 1949.

The odd 82.55 mm bore has a simple explanation: in the market conditions then, the easiest way was to outsource pistons from English producers, in this case Hippolite (sp.?), hence the dimensions that make sense if expressed in inches. The later rebore to 1975cc for the "Super" versions was also intended as dispensing with the Hippolite furniture, coming back to metrical size.

I would not agree that the Sportiva and Disco engines have nothing to do with each other. Indeed, one is cast alu and the other iron, from the top of my memory there's also one with dry sump, but still I seem to remember that the design, possibly the whole cyl. head layout/setup are quite similar, thus explaining the Sportiva's output to be midways vbetween the 115 HP of a 1900 SS and the 158 HP of the Disco. Now the 138hp of the Sportiva were intended for high performance, limited production, but yet stock car, while the DV is a pure racer.

While in a mood of disagreeing , I would stand on Stu's side about reserving the Disco Volante designation to the original, wing shaped cars, including the "Fianchi stretti", extension to the CMs being, IMO, improper. This can be seen as undecidable pedantry, I reckon. I've met once Bianchi Anderloni one year before his death. He impressed me very much as such a sweet, pleasant person, just happy to be there to talk about beautiful cars without fuss. But I'm sorry to say that I remained unimpressed by the contents of his DV book. No important issue about those cars is addressed, and his text is more confused/confusing than anything else. Another league, unfortunately, compared to his Touring Superleggera book. The DV thing has probably been commissioned to him by an editor... So in this case I would not rate this book as an authority for accepting the DV name for all the cars. It's just that, in order to fill the book without real deep analysis, it needed to caver the CMs as well. Many other source, I think Fusi is among them, but did not check right now, instead insist that there's a confusion. Still, when a current classic cars magazine deals with CMs, the "spin doctor" there put "Disco Volante" somewhere in the title hoping for a sales boost...

Stu: yes, I've been back to sources and confirm that, since Fangio, not Sanesi, crashed the CM spider before Merano, this cannot be confused with the following year's crash of the PR. So Fusi is OK with two CM spiders in addition to the 4 Spiders all identified by VIN. And no, I don't know the VIN of the crashed CM spider.

The next question is: why didn't the coupé suit the Merano race? The two spiders were prepared for Fangio and Sanesi, whatever the name of the drivers on entry forms (this of course also raises the question 'why?', but there can be a lot of reasons). Because Sanesi and Fangio both had to race there. The crash led Sanesi to decide himself if he would drive his car or let it to Fangio. Now why not running the Coupé? Entries were decided probably for two Spiders intended to race and one coupé as "muletto", eventually reduced to two cars.

Actually, while I'm 100% OK with the underrating, historically, of the CMs speed and performance, it must also be reckoned that the cars suffered major reliability problems which caused in several occasions serious crashes: several chassis failures in the steering box area; gearbox seizure causing spectacular crashes,... Also a bit of bad luck if you consider Kling hitting a rabbit or someting like that during Nürburgring practice.
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post #66 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-21-2005, 06:12 AM
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As one who likes sitting next to the furnace reading a good technical journal, as well as curling up by the fireplace with a good novel, this is the kind of thread I find fascinating and a great pleasure. Thank you, keep up the good work.

"If you have a thought lasting more than 4 hours call your PBS station immediately." -- Clik or was it Clak...

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post #67 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-21-2005, 06:51 AM
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Ten years ago, when I was an undergraduate studying Italian, I spent a summer working at a hotel just outside of Monza, Italy, owned by a guy called Antonietto Fossati, who at the time was in his early 70s (at a guess). Apparently he had raced Alfas during the early 1950s, and the entrance hall to the hotel was a veritable shrine to the many hundreds of GP drivers and other racers who had stayed at the hotel during race weekends at the circuit since the early 1960s. (We had Gerhard Berger there that weekend in 1995, and as he was checking out on Sunday evening he told Antonietto and I what happened that afternoon when he was closely following Alesi's Ferrari down one of the straights, when he noticed something that made him instinctively jerk his head his helmet to one side. His team-mate's on-board camera had fallen off the bodywork and missed his helmet by a matter of inches ... at 180mph!)

Anyway, I digress. Antonietto was almost incapable of speaking anything other than dialect Italian peppered with some splendid vulgarities , but he told me one evening that he was racing or testing a Disco Volante at Monza sometime during the mid-1950s and some kind of mechanical failure caused his car to spin off the track at a high-speed corner. He managed to scrub off enough speed to avoid serious injury to himself but he could do little about the trajectory of the Alfa, and he unfortunately hit and killed a policeman who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. I've often wondered if this was just a tall story or whether it was just a case of my misunderstanding him, or maybe there was some truth to this?

Alex.

Last edited by Alex; 10-21-2005 at 07:10 AM.
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post #68 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-21-2005, 06:53 AM
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Beautiful thread I must say. To illlustrate some more here are pics of the 6C 3000 CM that Sanesi was in and the "narrowed" spider #0002 of Bellucci.
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post #69 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-21-2005, 08:32 AM
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some one has stated that it started as a 3000cc engine and Alfa gave up on that.
The 6C engine , not the old 6c2500, did that not start as a 6C2000 designed by Ricardo for the Gazelle prototype. And than it was considered for the new Berlina "1900". And the enlarged by Colombo for the C50.
I have never heard that Alfa Romeo planed for a series production of a cc3000 car after the second world war
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post #70 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-21-2005, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp
some one has stated that it started as a 3000cc engine and Alfa gave up on that.
The 6C engine , not the old 6c2500, did that not start as a 6C2000 designed by Ricardo for the Gazelle prototype. And than it was considered for the new Berlina "1900". And the enlarged by Colombo for the C50.
I have never heard that Alfa Romeo planed for a series production of a cc3000 car after the second world war
I think that the 6C3000 prototype is the missing link to understand the engines. Luckily, it is an easy one to point to: Fusi, page 435-6, 3 cars made. 6 cylinder engine bore 82.55 x 92mm

Now look at the Gazzella, on page 414-9, and especially the engine photo on page 416 and the accessory layout of the engine in the drawings on page 418: this engine is unrelated to the 6C3000 - 1900 engine.

--Carter
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post #71 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-21-2005, 09:02 AM
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sorry, the Vettura
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post #72 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-21-2005, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp
some one has stated that it started as a 3000cc engine and Alfa gave up on that.
The 6C engine , not the old 6c2500, did that not start as a 6C2000 designed by Ricardo for the Gazelle prototype. And than it was considered for the new Berlina "1900". And the enlarged by Colombo for the C50.
I have never heard that Alfa Romeo planed for a series production of a cc3000 car after the second world war
As I tell you...

Please, don't tell me pedant, but how about once for all spell correctly poor Wifredo Ricart's name!

Now, back to seriousness. Indeed the 6C2000 "Gazzella" was built during the war tested and rated by Sanesi "unfit for production". A too complicated car as it seems.
Quote: 'the Gazzella is to a car what a locomotive is to a bicycle'

Resuming the 6C2500 production was the only way to go in a semi-destroyed factory, back in 1946. But the 6C2500 had its flaws, as brillantly highlighted in Anselmi's book. Busso's technical analysis is sharp, if possibly a little bit biased, but remember Anselmi is a real lover of the 6C2500, so the criticism is not unfair to the car.

There was need of something more modern, and the project was the 6C3000. I seem to remember the car was never fully completed beyond the scale mock up illustrated below and the engines which were further developped into the racing ones we are talking about.

In 1949, Alfa's management went into another change of mind and ordered the 6C3000 to be dropped, taht the design team should concentrate only on the "little" project, to become the 1900. Basically, however, the 6 and 4 cylindrers engines were the same. BTW, the 1900 engine should have featured aluminium block, but since the first tests with such a prototype showed problems, Satta and Busso settled for traditional cast iron as they had not the necessary time/resources to sort it out. So the aluminium block of the Disco Volante can be seen as the experimental realization of what was intended for the 1900 (not for output, just for construction)

edit/ Sorry Carter, I had not seen your post while I was writing, but of course we say the same thing.
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post #73 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-21-2005, 09:05 AM
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ok,I asked for that
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post #74 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-21-2005, 09:07 AM
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Well, Carter, if Fusi says 3 cars built...

I've not the book at hand, so you should be right.

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post #75 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-21-2005, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp
C52.85 x 88..1997cc engine was that not a special designed engine designed by Colombo with wet liners in a aluminium block, and only produced to Diso Volante
Colombo didn't come back to Milan until January of 1951, and immediately got to work on the heavy revisions that made the 158 the 159. He was very busy, and proud of his accomplishments. And the Discos were on the track in early Spring of '52.

We know that an aluminum block was developed for the 1900 but could not be released for production because of long term durability issues.

There was no time for a clean sheet design, and there were aluminum blocks [which we can assume shared the 6C3000 architecture] sitting around.

I would like to see inside the aluminum c52 engine, for sure. But from Fusi [and generally from photos] we know that we would find not a fresh Colombo design, but the same architecture as the 6C3000: large valves [sizes in Fusi] set at 90 degrees. 88mm stroke. The bore brought out to 2 litre class limits.

I admire Colombo, but this is not a motor which he would have claimed as his own.

--Carter
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