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post #46 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-18-2005, 08:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarterHendricks
This I think, but I am not certain: We know that the 6 cylinder cars had their own designation when they were built alongside the 4 cylinder cars. That conforms with standard Alfa type practice. But the 6 cyl cars are referred to casually as 6C3000 cars. When the new 6C3000CM cars were designed and given their own numbering system, perhaps the old cars were brought forward and included. Now my spread sheet and Fusi's numbers look clearer. Maybe not true, but clearer.

I am blown away by the photos.


--Carter

A very reasonable point of view...and I agree the photos are wonderful. I had never seen the one of the transporter with the cars on it before. Thanks for posting it...
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post #47 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-19-2005, 02:44 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
What I find most disappointing about this thread and similar ones is how few seem to be interested
I should contradict as well, if you don't mind
To be honest, I could learn already some unknown details inhere
Further Boudewijn's photos made my day!!!
And please remind that we are dealing with a very special topic.

Stu, about the 6C at Le Mans, you were absolutely right.
Kling broke the lap-record in the race, but later Villoresi made a quicker lap.

Carter, many thanks for sharing your knowledge with us!
Please allow me some short comments....

The book of Mr. Anderloni about the DVs is not very helpful when you look for well-researched material. Anderloni created the confusion himself. The photos, not the text make the book worthy!

Quote:
00128 is still with Peter Kaus, but no longer under the PF show car body. The PF body appeared at Amelia Island but it was carried clumsily by an historically unrelated 6C2500 chassis.
Do you have a confirmation for that? Sounds very sad!!!
What will happen to the chassis? A base for another recreation? Let's keep that in mind when another DV appears in the future!

Concerning the race-speed of the 6C cars at the MM, you were right. First Sanesi had the lead, then Kling, then Fangio until he came into technical difficulties.

When discussing the breaks of the 6C cars, I have to contradict.
The breaks were a serious problem in my opinion.
In the MM and in LM, one car retired due to problems caused by the breaks. They became too hot!
The Zagato Spider of JoBo also retired several times due to break failure or break overheating.

When you follow the development of the 6C Coupes, you mention that these air-scoops for cooling the breaks became larger each race. In the last version for the race at Spa-Francorchamps, the openings were fixed just behind the doors.

And don't forget, that Jaguar in 1953 was the first winner there with disc-breaks. That was the future in these days. Drum-breaks were not competitive anymore, although Ferrari switched very late to discs, it was a handicap using drum-breaks.

Best regards
Ciao Carlo
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post #48 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-19-2005, 02:50 PM
 
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Tom Zat has claimed for years to have a real C-52 Disco body with giulietta mechanicals under it that was fished out of a swamp (or at least that's the story I've heard for 20+ years). I haven't seen the car in person, but I have seen photos, and the coachwork looks pretty authentic. Has anyone seen the car in person, and knows it's REAL history?
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post #49 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-19-2005, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
Tom Zat has claimed for years to have a real C-52 Disco body with giulietta mechanicals under it that was fished out of a swamp (or at least that's the story I've heard for 20+ years). I haven't seen the car in person, but I have seen photos, and the coachwork looks pretty authentic. Has anyone seen the car in person, and knows it's REAL history?
I have seen that car, and it looks like someone saw one small photo of a Disco Volante in a magazine and decided that he would make his own version of the car at home in his basement from plywood.

--Carter

There are two? Disco Volante fakes that have been in the USA and now this misguided "6C3000CM" folly that was at Monterey, the one with the inappropriate 6C2500 motor [this might be the car referred to earlier in this thread].
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post #50 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-19-2005, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlo

Quote:
00128 is still with Peter Kaus, but no longer under the PF show car body. The PF body appeared at Amelia Island but it was carried clumsily by an historically unrelated 6C2500 chassis.

Do you have a confirmation for that? Sounds very sad!!!
What will happen to the chassis? A base for another recreation? Let's keep that in mind when another DV appears in the future!
I looked under its dress at Amelia! The wrong chassis and the sump almost touch the grass. I'll find my photos.

Like 00126, this car was a race car. Later on, it was pressed into service taking fancy PF bodies to car shows. How depressing, really. I think that fitting a proper recreation of the correct Colli body [presuming, of course, that the original body was discarded] is a way of fixing matters.

--Carter
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post #51 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-19-2005, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlo

When discussing the brakes of the 6C cars, I have to contradict.
The brakes were a serious problem in my opinion.
In the MM and in LM, one car retired due to problems caused by the brakes. They became too hot!

And don't forget, that Jaguar in 1953 was the first winner there with disc-brakes. That was the future in these days. Drum-brakes were not competitive anymore, although Ferrari switched very late to discs, it was a handicap using drum-brakes.
But they were good drum brakes : )

For sure LM marked the turning point for disc brakes. But old technologies carry on. Thomas Kuhn's book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions shows how good can beat true, at least for a while. And Moss's fabulous 1955 win at MM was in a car so similar to the 6C3000CM, including drum brakes.

The heat issues were actually rear axle problems, but caused by the inboard rear [drum] brakes. GTV6 racers reading this can relate to the problem. Heat is heat.

Of course disc brakes were on their way, and Alfa knew that. 00126 now has disc brakes, which surely helps setup and maintenance... and performance.

And I will admit to a little bias towards these wonderful cars.

--Carter
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post #52 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-19-2005, 04:36 PM
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I think this is a great thread - I think one of the reasons why not as many people are posting or seem interested (even though the thread has a lot of views) is that people aren't as familiar with these 6Cs. Other cars from that period - like C-types and Ferraris seem to make it out into public more often these days so people are more familiar with them.
Anyways great info and pictures - it is amazing to me what can come about from an informal meeting of knowledgeable (or just enthusiastic) people.
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post #53 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-19-2005, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnei
I think this is a great thread -
What we really need is for an authority to pick up this Disco Volante thread and separate it from the original lost topic.
Please .

--Carter
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post #54 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-20-2005, 07:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarterHendricks
What we really need is for an authority to pick up this Disco Volante thread and separate it from the original lost topic.
Please .

--Carter
I agree. I don't even remember who changed the subject from the aerodynamic Tipo B (P3) to the Discos...
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post #55 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-20-2005, 09:26 AM
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I have been under way for some days, and a lot of interesting things has come up.
First my excuse. I can be one of those gays that highjack this site ,sorry, but I have not attended to a forum before. But I find this subject very interesting.

The Argentinean 6C3000 is a replica, and they intend to build 6 pcs with V 6cyl Alfa engine. it can be seen on
http://www.autosjva.com.ar/en/origenes.html.
The Marano Gran Premio Supercortemaggiore was attended by 3 Alfa Romeo 6C3000 CM weather it was Coupe or spiders I don't know, but it could not all be spiders , driven by Fangio , Sanesi and Carini only qualyfied and fulfilled the Fangio Car, starting list can be seen on this site
http://www.jmfangio.org/gp1953superco.htm
There was also a Alfa Romeo C2 registries as a attended but did not start,for the race.Has there been a Alfa Romeo C2

There has turned so many interesting things up that one should make a sum up of all these interesting info.
Carlo , dretceterini and CarterHendricks , you have a deep knowledge could one of you sum of tropic,same of you have joined another forum with the same topics http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread.php?postid=1857627,, and seems to have a deep knowledge could one of you not make a consultation on these interesting historical facts.
It is a petty if the chassis on the PF 6C3500 Coupe is changed to 6C2500 chassis
It is a petty if the chassis on the PF 6C3500 Coupe is changed to 6C2500 chassis
The Disc brakes was the issue here in 1953 Alfa could not manage it because of the heat it transfers in to the bevel gears, inboard brakes, others had at the time outside brakes and it didn't give the same problems with the cooling.
Picture of 6C3000 with disc brakes and 6C3000 Coupe with drum brakes
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post #56 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-20-2005, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp
The Argentinean 6C3000 is a replica, and they intend to build 6 pcs with V 6cyl Alfa engine. it can be seen on
http://www.autosjva.com.ar/en/origenes.html.
Thanks for that interesting link I didn't know of. That doesn't mean however that the previously car quoted for sale is from the same origin. Here the replica are sold as such, the other "1951 CM" is just a suspect thing whose data don't fit history, and of which we have not yet seen a picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp
The Merano Gran Premio Supercortemaggiore was attended by 3 Alfa Romeo 6C3000 CM weather it was Coupe or spiders I don't know, but it could not all be spiders , driven by Fangio , Sanesi and Carini only qualyfied and fulfilled the Fangio Car, starting list can be seen on this site
http://www.jmfangio.org/gp1953superco.htm
For sure the second 6C3000CM entered for Sanesi, but not raced at Merano was a coupe. This is documented as the car can be seen on a picture in the paddocks of that event. When reading your post I've shortly been in doubt about a third car, but I was suspecting well: no third 6C. You've been too quick in reading the link you quote , as Carini's 6C is listed as "DNA", i.e. Did Not Arrive. A car entered that just didn't show up, where DNS (Did Not Start) indicates a car that took part to practice but not to the race.

The second 6C3000CM spider was indeed destroyed at Monza during pre-Merano practice, but not by Sanesi as I previously suggested, it was done by Fangio himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp
There was also a Alfa Romeo C2 registries as a attended but did not start,for the race.Has there been a Alfa Romeo C2
C2 should there stand for the category this car belonged to, Competizione 2 litre. It was the "fianchi stretti" Disco Volante. This is also supported with an existing picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp
There has turned so many interesting things up that one should make a sum up of all these interesting info.
Carlo , dretceterini and CarterHendricks , you have a deep knowledge could one of you sum of tropic, some of you have joined another forum with the same topics http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread.php?postid=1857627,, and seems to have a deep knowledge could one of you not make a consultation on these interesting historical facts.
Indeed there are other forums, outside AlfaBB, attended by good people. I know even of some wishing they can one day complete a comprehensive book on the present topic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp
The Disc brakes was the issue here in 1953 Alfa could not manage it because of the heat it transfers in to the bevel gears, inboard brakes, others had at the time outside brakes and it didn't give the same problems with the cooling.
I'm afraid you are mixing two different issues here, while being quite right overall. Let's say that back in the mid-50s heat was a major issue with disk brakes, not about the disc themselves but for the calipers. The then available liquid and pads didn't stand too well severe braking conditions as the restricted area causes heat to be concentrated around the caliper, resulting in liquid boiling thus no brakes anymore This was addressed, in the case of the 6C3000CM experiment with a circulation of the brake liquid with a pump and a small radiator. A little bit complicated, uh? Remember that the original, Dunlop rear brakes of the Giulia GTA also addressed that problem with remote pistons acting on the pads through levers.

About inboard brakes: that's another story without regard to drums or discs. Drums do evacuate heat as well as discs, just not exactly as concentrated in a limited area. So trasferring heat to the differential is also a concern, as well as the need to duct air into a less ventilated place under the centre of the car. Since this layout reduces unsprung weight, it was a common feature even on quite late F1, including among many others the Brabham Alfa BT46 and most F1s of the 60s/70s.
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post #57 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-20-2005, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp
another forum with the same topics http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread.php?postid=1857627,,
The interesting part of the discussion on this Atlas thread is that the history of the engine is questioned. Patrick Italiano is, of course, correct that the 6C3000 production car [never built] is the base for the engine used first in the C50 race car and then put into the first Disco Volante's. The first car we see tested is the 6 cylinder car. Think of it as a 165HP Giulietta, only much lighter, and on skinny tires. Great fun, but it already needed more chassis, and especially a better rear suspension. But back to the motors: as the chassis was developed so was the engine, first into the 6C3000CM and then revised again into the PR.

This progress was necessary: Alfa was aiming both at the Lambredi engined Ferrari cars and the D series Lancias. One of our mistakes is to rarely consider the cars in context. To understand the 6C3000CM cars we need to look at Rosani's book on the D series Lancia race cars.

But back to the motors. In the Atlas thread there is made the straw man arguement that none of these engines have interchangeable parts. Of course not. But the architecture was set. But not only did the 6C3000 lead to the 275HP 6C3000CM, it also was the base for the 1900 engine, which itself led a long long life.

Accepting Fusi:

6C3000.....82.55 x 92.......2995cc
C50..........82.55 x 92.......2995cc
C52..........85 x 88...........1997cc
1900........82.55 x 88........1884cc
Super.......84.50 x 88.......1975cc
'CM..........87 x 98............3495cc
PR...........87 x 83............2943cc...[there must be a better way to make a table]

The dimensional similarities are not accidental. But there were many changes between each of these engines, including between the 'CM and the PR.

--Carter

The photo of the engine being lowered into the C52 gives a wonderful view of the aluminum block. The 1900 production car was intended to have an aluminum engine but block cracking not solved until just as the Giulietta was being put into production meant that the 4 cyl 1900 block was cast in iron. When hustling a 1900 around corners you can draw an accurate sketch of the mass of that heavy engine : )

Also: Atlas is heavy with wonderful experts but I don't think we could go into such depth on such a narrow Alfa topic. This is a nice place here.
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post #58 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-20-2005, 11:12 AM
 
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I was also unaware of the "replicas" made in Argentina. Very interesting! I also like their "copy" of the A6 Maserati cycle fendered car..

As to GTV2000's comment:

"The second 6C3000CM spider was indeed destroyed at Monza during pre-Merano practice, but not by Sanesi as I previously suggested, it was done by Fangio himself."....are you sure this was a 2nd 6c3000CM spider and not the 6c3000PR??

I agree that the 2nd 6c3000CM at the Supercortemaggiore GP was indeed a coupe..and there was no 3rd car that catually showed up.

Has any more information been found on a second C-52 style car with a 3 liter motor?


Thanks,
Stu


PS: As to a book, I would be happy to contibute any way I can, but I really don't have much information that doesn't already exist in various sources...and most of those actaully involved are deceased. I also have no photos that haven't been published elsewhere.

Does someone else want to take on what is essentually an update of what I consider to be the best "generic" Alfa book done; the Hull and Slater??
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post #59 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-20-2005, 11:14 AM
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C52.85 x 88..1997cc engine was that not a special designed engine designed by Colombo with wet liners in a aluminium block, and only produced to Diso Volante
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post #60 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-20-2005, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp
C52.85 x 88..1997cc engine was that not a special designed engine designed by Colombo with wet liners in a aluminium block, and only produced to Diso Volante
I think that this engine was based on the aluminum block 4 cylinder, which was set aside during the development of the 1900. That story has been told in detail. The existing engines were a key to what started out as a small project.

--Carter
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