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post #16 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-16-2005, 12:26 AM
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Yes, its is the right front, but 1953 is that correkt?
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post #17 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-16-2005, 01:48 AM
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http://forums.atlasf1.com/printthrea...threadid=64987
I was searching on the net and found this. It seems that these questions are not new to you
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post #18 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-16-2005, 03:26 AM
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info from http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread.php?postid=1895887

Bonnier took over the Alfa Romeo dealership in Sweden in 1954 and thet was the key to his racing career. He raced several different Alfas in Sweden and got this old Disco in 55. He managed to wrap it round a tree in practice for the Helsinki races and sent it back to Italy where Zagato did a new open body for the car. But it was John Kvarnström who debuted the rebuilt car in the Swedish GP, as Jo concentrated on his new 1900 Zagato in a supporting race.
The other Alfa owners were not part of a team. They had just bought their cars from JoBo. And sometimes he got some pretty interesting cars in exchange.
In the spring of 56 Jo left his car dealership and started Scuderia Bonnier. He went for full-time racing on the continent with a new Maserati 150S, the Disco and his road car, an Alfa 1900.
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post #19 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-16-2005, 03:46 AM
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http://img37.imageshack.us/my.php?lo...ospider8ol.png
This picture from carlo, explain a lot


I think that my knowledge is cleared up regarding 6C3000CM .It is the referring to Disco Volante that have made my knowledge misinterpreted. The Disco has always been spiders to me , expect the for Touring Coupe.
But the Swedes do also refer to the Colli Coupes 6C3000CM as disco.
But I got a little wiser in my knowledge on 6C3000 CM . thanks
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post #20 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-16-2005, 10:41 AM
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The story of the "Disco Volantes" is very confusing, and I am sure we do not know all the details. One question I have is why is the car now painted in the national colours of blue and yellow? Was it ever painted this way "in period"? The car appears to have been red originally. In an old English magazine, circa 1955, there is a photo of the Bonnier Zagato car sitting next to his 1900 TI berlina, at an event in England, but I can not find which magazine and the copy of this photo.

The 6c3000 CMs and 6c3000PR have been called Disco Volantes for many years, in many articles. In my opinion, they should not be called Disco Volantes. The Disco Volantes should ONLY include;

The 2 and 3 liter spiders with the C-52 "flying saucer" coachwork
The one-of-a-kind C-52 2 liter coupe with "flying saucer" coachwork
The one-of-a-kind slab sided C-52 spider raced by a French driver, which is now in the Schlumpf museum
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post #21 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-16-2005, 11:21 AM
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Yes , I can only give you right the C52 by Touring is the Disco Volantes, if it should be correct even the slab sided should be rejected , as to my knowledge it vas produced by Colli prior to the 6C3000CM. But the cooperation between Touring and Colli should have been very close, as things went boot ways, design from touring to Colli and parts from Colli to Touring. And I think that is one of the reason that the theme Disco Volante,has become such a confusion.

But what with the missing spider and coupe. Where are they
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post #22 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-16-2005, 12:30 PM
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The reason I include the slab sided car among the Disco Volantes is that it is exactly the same as the other C-52 cars, except for the coachwork, which, as you say, is by Colli. I am not certain if only one, or two cars were built with the C-52 Touring spider coachwork, and the 3 liter (NOT 3.5 liter) motor.

I am 90% certain only one 6c3000CM spider was built; the Supercortemaggiore car.

The 6c3000CM Zagato spider is a re-body of a Le Mans/Mille Miglia coupe.

In my opinion, the 6c3000PR spider should NOT be considered as part of this group.
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post #23 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-16-2005, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
The reason I include the slab sided car among the Disco Volantes is that it is exactly the same as the other C-52 cars, except for the coachwork, which, as you say, is by Colli. I am not certain if only one, or two cars were built with the C-52 Touring spider coachwork, and the 3 liter (NOT 3.5 liter) motor.
Yes, the slab sided car is identical in its structure, mechanicals and coachbork building, so it can be considered a variant. The second 3-litre is a long lasting mistery...

Quote:
I am 90% certain only one 6c3000CM spider was built; the Supercortemaggiore car.
Well, to me it's an open question, as there are witnesses saying opposite.

Quote:
The 6c3000CM Zagato spider is a re-body of a Le Mans/Mille Miglia coupe.
I agree it's the acknowledged version.

Quote:

In my opinion, the 6c3000PR spider should NOT be considered as part of this group.
That's the other end of the 'open question' above. The only existing illustration is a drawing in Fusi showing it so close to the Colli cars look that I still wonder about the recollection of the Spider crashed at Monza.

Of course it's not related to proper Disco Volantes, but it's a close parent of the 6C3000 CMs, even if capacity was back to 3000. As far as I know, it shared a similar tubular frame, if shortened, and mechanical parts such as transmission and suspensions.
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post #24 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-16-2005, 05:45 PM
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I know that there are "stories" of a second 6c3000CM "Supercortemaggiore" style car, but have you seen any real evidence of it's existance?

Have you found any further details about the motors in the 3 liter C-52 car?

As to the 6c3000 PR, all I have is the information in Fusi. Have you found anything else of substance?
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post #25 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-17-2005, 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
I know that there are "stories" of a second 6c3000CM "Supercortemaggiore" style car, but have you seen any real evidence of it's existance?
I've been told about that last time I've been i Arese by an old witness. The problem is that I don't remember his name, as we were a large group including Moroni and others, and I wondered about that, have been told the museum car is NOT fangio's and the story of the car crashed by Sanesi.

The same thing is to be found in a recent book, I would say in Busso's memories, but it can be another among the latest issued Alfa books as the point there was not to discusss the cars, but to illustrate the relationship between Satta and Sanesi.

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Originally Posted by dretceterini
Have you found any further details about the motors in the 3 liter C-52 car?

As to the 6c3000 PR, all I have is the information in Fusi. Have you found anything else of substance?
Yes indeed, there's very little available info on that car. I should dig into some archive boxes to chack whether I have more.
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post #26 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-17-2005, 12:28 PM
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1 narrow side , fianchi stretti Touring or Colli
1 coupe Touring
both the 4cyl and the 6cyl was tested
I don't have the book about Disco Volant and have not read it. But in the book, Touring Superleggera, Anderloni writs Quote.
In 1953 this led to a redesign of the vehicle and the so called "Disco Volante fianshi stretti",
a version the lenticular section was only a faint memory, while the wheels remained uncovered like those of a normal sports "barschetta" of the Italian sporting tradition.
Unfortunately we don't have photograph of this version which was also built by Touring within the framework of its normal cooperation with Alfa Romeo. end Quote
We know that there was a lot of sups playing from the smaller carrozzeria to the large, and the cooperation between Colli and Touring was close. The Colli Brothers had got there craftsman education in the Touring workshop , an thy placed the workshop opposite to Touring in the same street, and maybe Bianchi Anderloni has edged the brothers to open there own carrozzeria.
If the assumption is correct, then can the sentence "within the framework of its normal cooperation" mean that Touring had got the order for a alternative design and passed the order to
Tourings subs player Colli, as it was supposed to be a one off order. The history has brought knowledge, that the narrow side was build by Colli and everybody has forgot that it was Touring that originally got the order to build an alternative version. Rudolf Hruska played a part in this
I suppose as a consultancy, as he was at this time, and maybe he was under pressure from the management by Alfa Romeo. The management was under pressure from the general board because they had approved a very high sum in connection with the Grand Prix/formula 1 , so spending in connection with racing activities was not popular. So Hruska had to come up with a result of his activity, and then pressed Anderloni to accept that other tried within the " normal cooperation".
It is assumptions, I am aware of that. But sometimes we must look behind the lines to have a impression of what really was going on.
The narrow side bodied came in 1953 parallel to coupe wide side and the 6C3000CM, so a lot of thing was going on Via Ludovico da Breme in this period.
The 6C3000CM, according to Fusi, was produced in
2 spiders.
4 coupes.
Whey do you suppose that there was only one spider. Wu usually have fait in the statement by Fusi, he states serie 1361 there was 6 chassis and 6 engines, no chassis or engine numbers, ( Fusi third edition) not mentioned.
You don't regard the 6C3000PR as a part of the wide interpretation of Disco Volante, whey not.
The reason whey Colombo left Alfa Romeo to Lancia and the Busso taking over, was that the last expression from the new generations engineers, that had also led to Janos move to Lancia.
Or was it only the result of closing down on the racing activities
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post #27 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-17-2005, 01:12 PM
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Which car could this be? It has a different registration plate compared to the Supercortemaggiore car but is also a different car. It was raced at the GP of Sweden on August 7 1955 by Kvarnström.
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post #28 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-17-2005, 02:03 PM
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That's the Bonnier Zagato spider, that started out as a coupe
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post #29 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-17-2005, 11:50 PM
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There's a car advertised as a 1951 6C 3000 CM Spider apparently built for Froilan Gonsales at this dealer in San Juan Capistrano CA ... no pics though.

http://www.familyclassiccars.com/en_US/MiscPage_2.chtml

Scroll down to the end of the inventory list. Apologies if this is just repeating old information, but has anyone seen this one?

Alex.

Last edited by Alex; 10-18-2005 at 12:06 AM.
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post #30 of 506 (permalink) Old 10-18-2005, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex
There's a car advertised as a 1951 6C 3000 CM Spider apparently built for Froilan Gonsales at this dealer in San Juan Capistrano CA ... no pics though.

Alex.
1951 is a nonsense for a 6C3000CM, as CM standing for the engine rebored to 3.5 litre refers to a later modification. In 1952, the 6C was still at 3-litre, like in the 1950 6C Competizione or the 6-cyl version of the "proper" Disco Volante".

I wouldn't bet on a car "built to exact specifications in Argentina" 2 years before the original... Indeed there's very good craftmanship in Argentina.

Now, pictures could lead to identification - there can be a typo about the date - or we might be able to recognize what it is really.
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