8513033- Alfa 6c1750 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-28-2011, 01:41 AM Thread Starter
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8513033- Alfa 6c1750

I am looking for the current owner of this alfa. I discovered a kilo of documents from the 1930's on this car in an Italian market. This kind of stuff belongs with the car, so I search for the owner. search: 6c1750- 8513033 - 4th series Grand Sport .....thanks Tony , [email protected]
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-28-2011, 04:19 AM
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May I ask how you are sure that the pictures you found relate to that very chassis number?
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-28-2011, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treasurechest View Post
I am looking for the current owner of this alfa. I discovered a kilo of documents from the 1930's on this car in an Italian market. This kind of stuff belongs with the car, so I search for the owner. search: 6c1750- 8513033 - 4th series Grand Sport .....thanks Tony , [email protected]
The car is to be auctioned next week in Paris France by Bonhams, please find below the link to the auction.
Looks like a great car to have documents of, the car is fairly well known,if you google it you will find it on several car forums including the ALfaBB (for example this thread: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfa...rt-spyder.html ), would be great if your documents can shed some light on the history.

Lot Details

kind regards,

Jelle

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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-29-2011, 01:56 AM Thread Starter
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8513033- Alfa

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Originally Posted by gtv2000 View Post
May I ask how you are sure that the pictures you found relate to that very chassis number?
The race event applications from 1930 show the chassis number and the license plate number also - the same license plate is on the car in the glass plates. There is a hand written ''offical'' Italian document called a licenza di Circolazione Privato , this is dated and stamped and has little postage stamps in it, listed inside is the motor number and chassis number. That document is in good condition, very clearly typed and hand written. It has additional and notes, typed and also hand written, seems where the car changed hands, and some type of repair noted- maybe a change, and then another license plate number issued, those plate numbers are seen on a series photo taken after 1930. The box contains pictures of another car, a strange one I've not seen before- see here.
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-06-2011, 04:29 PM
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Alfa ROmeo 6C1750 N. 8513033

Please note that two cars claim this chassis number today. Both are currently in Europe. One of them seems to have a genuine claim to the number and the other clearly does not. I know quite a lot first-hand about the car that seems to have been restored on the original mechanical package and which spent some time in Texas during recent years.

I have received enough information about the second car that is now easily characterized as a pretender. It is still quite interesting! Although the second car has only one characteristic that argues in its favor as coming perhaps from a car numbered in the vicinity of 8513033, this should not keep us from studying the original AND the pretender. We will all know more in the end.

John
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-08-2011, 02:47 AM Thread Starter
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Paris No Sale - 8513033

I did manage to see the Alfa subject to my thread in Paris. It seemed that the bidding died at the 500 Euro range, and was closed and withdrawn by the auctioneer. The bidding was quickly closed, and I did not see a bidder in the audience. I tried to locate the current owner, but no one would suggust he was there. I did notice the chassis plates, both new. I am not the expert on these cars, but the other Alfa there , a third series, looked the right job and it would have been my choice. Several people emailed me on the box I discovered, and I will sell it to the owner of the car, when he emerges - as I think the photos and registeration belong with the car - whichever car it is. I dont' understand why a car with no issues would sell at three auctions- 3 times in 5 years, that is something that makes no sense to me. I dont understand also why something goes up in value, year after year, when it is questionable and there are rumored to be two...... two Mona Lisas?
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-08-2011, 06:11 AM
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If there are "two Mona Lisas", as I also heard from serious people who attended the Paris auction, then your intent to sell your documents to "the owner" needs to first indentify the right one...

Now there are various tricks sellers of dubious cars can use to try and improve the value of their item.
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-08-2011, 01:11 PM
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Two "Mona Lisa" and two AR6C8513033?

Nobody is suggesting that there were two genuine "Mona Lisa" paintings ... even if it is possible that more than one similar work was done by the same artist. Nor should it be suggested that there were two Alfa Romeo 6C1750 that were numbered "8513033" by Alfa Romeo ... even though this is also vaguely possible. Regardless, there are conceptual parallels.

There are many copies of the Mona Lisa that take various forms, some of which are only vaguely evocative of the original and some which are done so accurately that they might fool even some experts for a time.

In the case of 8513033, I have seen one car that is either "genuine" or is good enough to fool me. I do not consider myself "expert" but I am certainly a somewhat experienced student.

I readily acknowledge that the car I saw is not 100% original in all respects but I am personally convinced that the fundamental car that made history in 1930 and 1931 as "6C8513033" underlies an older restoration that, from today's viewpoint, would be acknowledged by most as being not well-executed in many important and obvious details. However, according to the standards of the time when the bulk of the restoration work was done, it is perfectly acceptable. Standards have changed in forty years! Additional distraction has come from ill-advised work done in the 1995-2005 time period that attempted to make the car seem more aged and original in the body and paint area. To my mind, the efforts would have been better spent in correcting some errors made during the restoration & re-body that was done circa 1970. As the car sits today, one could be forgiven for thinking that it is not accurately evocative of the original. In fact, it needs some work to be "made right". But, it is what it is and can never be made truly original even though the body can certainly be made to reflect its original detail more accurately. If soem of the historical information has not accompanied the car into the present owners, I can help with information I've gathered. It seems that there is now a box of additional information that may be of some assistance. As time goes by, we will find more relating to 8513033. I know which car will get my assistance and which will only get additional study.

I've already made mention of this on another thread, but I know the owner who sold the car at Monterey (was it 2 1/2 years ago already?) bought it on a spur-of-the-moment whim thinking it might fit into a vague "plan" that was not yet formulated in his mind. Then he bought a highly original fifth-series car a couple of years later. As he began the restoration of the second car, he came to the conclusion that he did not need two of these cars. When the second car is finished he may just decide that his plans have changed again? I don't know. But I do know that the simple fact that the car has been offered three times in less than six years does not make the car any kind of "Pariah" in my mind. In fact, these kinds of cars have historically been owned by at least two different kinds of people. It is an over-simplification to call them "keepers" and "tasters" but this describes the general nature of a large cross-section of the people who own interesting cars. Another way might be to say that there are those who have collections of cars they've owned one-at-a-time. There are others who are "owned" by what they have and give those things up only reluctantly.

I used to be surprised at cars that were purchased and then sold within a year or two. I cannot conceive of having a meaningful relationship with a car for such a brief period. But I have come to understand that the world is full of "tasters" who have the means to own one or two or more cars at a time but cannot own them all. They progress through a collection of wants and 'taste" each car for a time before passing it on to someone else ... who may also be a "taster". As with most things we get to observe, each case is unique but sometimes a pattern seems to develop. Sometimes the pattern is meaningful and sometimes it is not. You might be surprised by the number of times some of these cars were recorded as "sold" when they were still quite new. I have notes of some cars that sold six times in five years during the 1930's. "Tasting" is not only a recent phenomenon among the people who can afford to have nice things ... but perhaps not all at once.

Returning to the subject: Another car numbered "8513033" has only been reported to me by a couple of different sources and I cannot judge it personally. But, from what has been reported, and from the photos I've seen, it is only evocative of 8513033 from front to rear and top to bottom. It is not the Mona Lisa and it may not even be anything more than a collection of Alfa Romeo parts from a selection of cars that are mostly identifiable as being not even from the fourth-series production of 1930. Does this make it a "bad" car? Not to my mind. But it does make for quite a distraction from the car that is not as "good" (neither as "original", nor as accurately restored) as most would like it to be.

If there is a third (and fourth) car claiming the number "8513033", I am not yet aware of it (or them) but it wil also be necessary to study those distractions if they should appear on the scene. Just as there are those who probably make an effort to see all of the Mona Lisa knock-offs, "just in case there is something to be learned about the original".

John

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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-04-2012, 05:25 AM
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The very same 8513033 will be up for auction again by Bonhams at the upcoming sale on 11th. May in Monaco.
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-08-2012, 07:33 AM
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Failed entry for Mille Miglia

I have seen this car the last few years at a Ferrari showroom in the eastern part of Holland and once at a Concours d'Elegance in Apeldoorn. It belongs to a steel entrepreneur from that region. It is told that he bought it with the intent to drive it in the Mille Migia but on at least two attempts the entry was rejected.

For a car with such a reported heritage it is at least odd that the Mille Miglia organization apperently does not want this car taking part in its event. Do they know something about the history of this particular car to make it's reputation tainted?
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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-19-2012, 04:46 PM
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8513033

This 6C is somewhat controversial through no fault of its own. It has problems that are all related to people who have owned it or who have been involved with some aspect of promoting it. There is a lengthy time period during which the car was not known and this makes some folks unconfortable. And, there are distractions as well.

People can figure all of this out on their own by studying material that is out there already, some of it here on the AlfaBB.

This car:
1) Is not quite "correctly" restored.
2) Does not have its original body.
3) Another car has been presented incorrectly in recent years with the same chassis number.
4) Some folks involved with this car's history (even if only claiming involvement) have not the best of reputations when it comes to the presentation of history.

The organizers of the MM have the luxury of being over-subscribed every year and say "no" to many worthy cars each year. You'll have to ask them if there is a particular reason for this car to have been denied entry thus far. It might well be that it will be accepted another time? And, once accepted one year, there is no guarantee that it would be accepted the following year. That is simply the way it is. For the MM. For the Monterey Historic Automobile Races (now under a new name) and many other events that are popular and over-subscribed.

If I were a MM organizer and cared enough to become involved with this specific car as a "friend", I would suggest a couple of restoration corrections to the owner that might help it receive a favorable review and perhaps have a better chance of acceptance. At the moment, certain visible details are not even close to the configuration it had on the Mille Miglia races of 1930 and 1931, the years that it raced.

Incidently, there is a bit of evidence that the frame might have been replaced by Alfa Romeo (or Ferrari?) immediately after the 1930 Mille Miglia. Nothing conclusive at this point, but it seems somewhat likely. To me, this is "real world" verification of use rather than fantasy world of "numbers matching" nonsense that is over-valued because those of us who study these cars think it is pretty cool when it happens after eighty years. There's a lot of stuff out there that is "numbers-matching" today that was not always quite so "pure" when only two years old!

This car appears to have virtually all of its original major mechanical components today. Many cars cannot legitimately claim that today even if they seem to be "matching numbers" as they are presented to us today at shows and other vintage events.

6C8513033 in a very nice car. It won't take a lot to make it a "great car" once again while seeming to be historically "correct". But it still won't have its original body.

Best of luck out there!

John
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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 05-20-2012, 09:25 AM
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8513033 - steel analysis and number verification

Sorry John,

there were some new researches done, by the RWTH-Aachen, on behalf of the owner in the Netherlands, which IMHO clearly stated, that the steel of the frame was not of the early thirties and that maybe on the lefthand side of the engine, were due to acid test, at least one number(digit "5") viewable, where normally GT-engines were stamped with their engine numbers.

These papers were public viewable at the Monaco-auction, but only in German language and therefore not all visitors were able to extract the most important points in the two test reports by the RWTH Aachen University.

I have pictures/ copies of the relevant text parts, but I don't know, whether it is allowed to forward or even publish them.

The story got very tricky, because one German well known "expert", which was involved(paid for) in this research at least on behalf of the owner, tried afterwards to improve the negative conclusion of the RWTH report, regarding to the steel quality, by consulting some folks of the SSK-restoration community here in Germany, who confírmed vocally, that the steel used in the frame of the 6C8513033, could be of the same quality, as the steel in a Mercedes SSK. What this confirmation could be worth, may everybody consider carefully....

Best
Wolf
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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-11-2013, 03:27 PM
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Still waiting

I am hoping that, one day, some precise information will be shared about the test results mentioned above. At the moment, it seems that only vague statements have been made that imply that science has been used to cast doubt on the origins of one of the cars claiming chassis "8513033".

I've seen nothing to indicate that the same science has been referred to with respect to the fact that we know precisely what the alloy of the chassis "should be" according to the original chassis drawings. It would be very nice to learn precisely what the alloy was comprised of. Ditto for the engine crankcase alloy.

Unfortunately, we cannot always be absolutely certain that the called-for alloys were always used when the chassis were formed and parts were cast and/or forged. We will need to test a large number of chassis and their parts in order to confirm or deny the many possibilities.

And, although it will be of interest to others to test Mercedes SS and SSK chassis in a similar manner, I cannot see how this should relate to the study of an Alfa Romeo.
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