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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-16-2004, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtv2000
Among the very innovations on production Alfas, one can spot the first alloy housing for final drive, on the 1900. When Alfa sent to Gleason in the US the 1900 diff case to have suitable gears fitted in, Gleason sent it back with accompanying letter saying" we are afraid you used the wrong metal for your final drive case", and Alfa had to insist they really intended to make it that way.
VW Beetle designed in the late 30's has an alloy transaxle ... thus alloy differential housing ... but I have heard this story before.

Italians are not innovators, they are people that pour their passion into something and make it BETTER.

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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-17-2004, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
VW Beetle designed in the late 30's has an alloy transaxle ... thus alloy differential housing ... but I have heard this story before.

Pete
I confess I have quoted that differential housing story without checking myself for accuracy, so I might well have perpetuated a myth here.

When possible, I'll have a look into the original W transaxle construction. I wonder if it had Gleason-type gears. This might be the explanation, if the housing itself was already in aluminium on the prewar VWs. The other possibility would be that it makes a difference, from the dilation point of view, if your are dealing with a live axle or an independent rear suspension.

Of course, late 1930s racing Alfas as well as "production" 8C2900s had an alloy transaxle, with the gearbox in unit at the rear, like on an Alfetta and derivates. But they had a suspended diff with IRS.

To be researched further...
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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-17-2004, 10:07 AM
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This may not be about the thread.

Man the one thing that pisses me off the most is how companies like Lexus or Honda, even Acura same company as honda, have these stupid comercials about there new featers inthere cars, and there the first to come up with the invention. Like the lexus headlights that turn when you turn your wheels left or right. And how acura copies there designs from audi and alfa romeo.
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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-17-2004, 03:58 PM
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Was Alfa first with a turbo that was pressurized by the engine's oil? This is mentioned in Braden's Bible.

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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-17-2004, 04:30 PM
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ALFA Invention

Seems I remember reading ALFA held a patent on the "Electron-Magnesium Alloy" used in our engines and on alloy wheels. Don't know if that includes all magnesium alloy wheels. Check the metalurgy files.
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post #21 of 29 (permalink) Old 11-22-2004, 10:43 AM
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Yep, that's right. Since the 30s,Alfa developped special alloys.
The one you refer to shall be called "duralfa".

I tried to check about the aluminium diff housing. From period witnesses (Ing. Landberg), that was Gleason who had no previous experience of such aluminium housing and was concerned with the dilation problems. That doesn't mean that nobody had done it before, but, as I guessed, not with hypoid gearing since Gleason had the patent for them.

About the oil-pressure driven compressor, it's indeed probably the first application for supercharging an engine, but when I interviewed him, Ing. Surace told me where he took the idea from, albeit he had to adapt it. The problem was to both run the turbine with enough energy and prevent air bubbles to run into the high pressure circuit. He managed to do so, and another US car maker later tried the same idea, but didn't succeed for that reason. But the device never went into production, even if it was intended to.
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post #22 of 29 (permalink) Old 12-17-2004, 11:41 AM
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512

512 was a Wilfred Ricart design - the man who fired Ferrari, later more famous for the pagaso, and...the 512...didn't work; most people thinkl only the D type auto union worked; earlier versions quite leathel. The cooper worked.
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post #23 of 29 (permalink) Old 12-20-2004, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by digikissed
512 was a Wilfred Ricart design - the man who fired Ferrari, later more famous for the pagaso, and...the 512...didn't work; most people thinkl only the D type auto union worked; earlier versions quite leathel. The cooper worked.
May I correct the "famous engineer's" name as WIFREDO RICART?

Actually he didn't fire Ferrari. The two men didn't like each other (probably more Ferrari disliking Ricart), but it was Ugo Gobbato's decision to close down the Scuderia Ferrari and hire Ferrari himself at the head of the new Alfa Corse racing department. But Ferrari had always been jealous of his own autonomy and also wanted to stay in Modena instead of working in Milan. Gobbato trusted Ricart and accepted Ferrari's dismission in 1939 paying him substantial money, but forbidding the use of the Ferrari name for Automotive construction in the next 5 years or so.
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post #24 of 29 (permalink) Old 12-21-2004, 05:14 AM
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Group,

Thie is an interesting thread, and an example of why the BB is so entertaining. I'm a long-time Alfa enthusiast without the encyclopedic knowledge of some others, but here are my comments:

The request is for "technological innovations", not successful technological innovations. So... how about the split driveshaft for the P2 Grand Prix car (at least I think this is where it was used). And the "Bimotore", twin-engined, race car (again, not sure of which model).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubolare Zagato
Could anyone make a "list" of technological innovations by Alfa Romeo over the years at racing and road cars? Thanks in advance!!!


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post #25 of 29 (permalink) Old 12-21-2004, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by conedriver
Group,
The request is for "technological innovations", not successful technological innovations. So... how about the split driveshaft for the P2 Grand Prix car (at least I think this is where it was used).
May I correct you and guess you're referring to the "P3", aka "Tipo B"?

I'm not aware of any other car having ever featured such a split shaft. Nor is anybody able to explain exactly why Jano made it that way... The best educated guess is that he didn't know himself... Instead, there are many other example of twin engined cars, including Citroen 2CV and Alfasud, both with one engine in front and another at the rear.

Now, every industrial company applies for lots of patents every year. Either they have no practical following, or they are easily circumvented. Often they are about details irrelevant at the eyes of the enthusiast who's not aware of production problems, etc.

Among the less successful patents related, but not belonging to Alfa, one worthy to remember is the one covering the Disco Volante aerodynamical shape.
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post #26 of 29 (permalink) Old 12-26-2004, 07:15 AM
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Ricart

nice page on Ricart designed Pegaso:

http://www.classics.com/pgss01.html
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post #27 of 29 (permalink) Old 12-28-2004, 03:55 AM
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I'm not aware of any other car having ever featured such a split shaft. Nor is anybody able to explain exactly why Jano made it that way
It has a very simple answer. It was meant for lowering the pilot possition and general gravity center, and also to eliminate the torque diff/axle rotating forces.

Many other cars used off-set proplers to reduce the gravity center, along with offset engines.

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post #28 of 29 (permalink) Old 12-28-2004, 04:14 AM
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Auto Union did this successfully a few years earlier ... and they actually raced theirs Please also explain the stroke comment. If you are refering to 5.4mm piston stroke ... impossible. Also please remember the BRM 1.5 v16 that surely would have smaller bore/stroke dimensions.

Auto Union used V12 and V16 not flat engines (althouw the 512 was a 180º V12)... when i say 40 years in advace in mean the central/flat 12 combination.

The stroke was 54.2mm sorry by the mistake (units were cm=10mm). The BRM V16 indeed used 48.6mm, but has tecnica inovations i meanted that AT THE TIME that was the shortest stroke ever.

And also think we could stick to the inovation in automobile aplications. For exemple, everyone acepts Jaguar as the first disk brake inovator, but Douglas (motorcycles) used disk brakes in their sidecars as early as 1923...

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post #29 of 29 (permalink) Old 12-28-2004, 07:29 AM
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Tipo B split axle

Quote:
Originally Posted by tome coelho
It has a very simple answer. It was meant for lowering the pilot possition and general gravity center, and also to eliminate the torque diff/axle rotating forces.

Many other cars used off-set proplers to reduce the gravity center, along with offset engines.
Yes, that's the point: the official reason given for the split shaft is lowering the driver's position. Now if you look at a cut-away sideview drawing of a Tipo B, you notice the driver's seat isn't lower than the axle line. If there's any lowering, it's in the order of a few millimeter, allowing for the rear suspension upside travel. Off-set axles did achieve driver's lowering in a more convincing way in other applications.

And it doesn't eliminate the torque forces on the differential, it just moves them to another point. It doesn't make gear ratio changes easier either. I remember a nice pic of Lehoux' Tipo B before a French event in 1934 with the whole rear end, including exhaust, suspension, etc. removed for a gear pinion change on the verge of the track.

It's a very nice and unique layout, but it probably adds nothing to the car performance. It might have been inspired by the actual torque reducing action of the Tipo A double shaft. But there each shaft was turning the other way compared to each other, hence the torque effect elimination.

This has been extensively discussed here:

http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread...le+shaft+split

and more deeply even here:
http://forums.atlasf1.com/showthread...lfa+axle+shaft
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