Fusi Errors in production lists - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-04-2009, 10:10 PM Thread Starter
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Fusi Errors in production lists

I am working on an edited version of the Fusi lists for my blog < giulietta sprints >that has serial numbers by year, engine number ranges etc... you know what I'm talking about. Anyhow, there are a lot of errors etc on the original lists and I am trying to clear some of them up for the new list. Examples include the 1962 2600 Bertone Sprint engine number range, 101.18 Spider Veloce engine range that doesn't exist, 1963 left hand drive 1600 spider engine numbers that make no sense and lack of 10105 Sprint for 1959 etc.

To the point, if you have seen an error/omission and know the 'real story' let me know either here or in PM.

My goal is to provide a free serial/vin reference that makes sense based on real cars and evidence.

Thanks,

A Sprint
A Spider
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-05-2009, 05:02 PM
 
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One thing I would like to know is how many confortovoles and how many lightweight sprints were actually made...
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-07-2009, 11:26 AM
 
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Hey, what do you know about overproduction runs on 536 1600 engines. Fusi only goes up to 20500 or so. I have one 536.21450.
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-07-2009, 01:32 PM
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This would be a valuable resource. For example, I'm trying to determine if I have the original 1300 in my late-production Giulietta Sprint. I have no original docs, the number plates from this era as a rule didn't list the engine no., and the ArchivoStorico said they had no specific engine number for my chassis number, other than it is line with post-1960 production.
If there were enough data points of cars with engines known to be original near my build date I might be able to bracket my engine number in between these other cars.

Phil

Phil
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-08-2009, 06:24 PM Thread Starter
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Dr. E: I intend to keep giuliettas.com active for a long time and will likely have enough cars tracked at some point to give an educated guess, but I think Greig has already worked it out to an extent that I am inclined to believe. Big problem with these cars is they are now very valuable and a lot of owners like to remain on the down low about owning them for some reason.

Laire: Fusi was compiling the data that makes the lists up as 536 engines were coming off the assembly line so I imagine he just ended the series where they were when the book went to publication.

Phil: I have a pretty good list of existing Sprint VIN's with engine and even Bertone numbers. If you email me yours I'll add it and reply with some number combo's that surround it.

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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-18-2009, 06:21 AM
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Lightweight & Confortevole production numbers

Hi Gents

There were around 600 Lightweights made - simple mathematics works this one out, the list of the first 100 cars is known - they run consecutive engine numbers - I have copy if anyone wants it, from this initial 100 list, the first and last cars:
Numero Numero Data di Colore Primo proprietario
di telaio di motore produzione

01380 30001 24.04.1956 Rosso Carlo Guarneri, Brescia

02158 30100 20.06.1956 Rosso Alfa Carlo Mario Abate, Torino
Seeing as there are known SV Lightweights with build dates right through to late '57, we can safely say that production didn't end in June '56 with Abbate's SV (later converted to an SVZ).

Working backwards from Factory numbers & Fusi, (allowing for a slim margin of error), it seems as if there were about 600 Lightweights, (given the numbers still around after the attrition of racing, rust & time, 600 is a number that makes sense.

If they produced 100 in 2 months, that left 14 months of production time before September '57 when the SV Confortevole was launched, allowing for a Christmas shut-down & the birth of the SS in '57, it would not have been an issue for Bertone to produce another 500 SV Lightweights. This equates to around 72 cars per "2 monthly" time periods - remeber they built the first 100 in 2 months.

There were 199 Confortevole's made, starting in September '57 with 1493E05834, all the way up to 1493E06611 (Lionel Velez' car in Texas)

The Chassis number of the SVC's are all in D'Amico & Tabbucci (spelling ??), taken directly from their research in the Archives. The first 50 had rolled aluminium frames around the doors to take a full wind-up window, while the remaining 149 cars had conventional frameless windows. Issue 98 of the Giuliettaletta had a full article on the SVC's.

My own SVC engine is 30800, mine is the 36th SVC made, (6 Feb '58), thus we can safely say Alfa made a few extra SV engines along the way, (this accounts for those SV motors in the early SS's (just stamped with other numbers), those SV engines in the Asardo cars as well as those period Replacement Motors that are in a few cars thanks to lead-footed PO's

Hope this clears up any confusion.

Ciao
Greig

Last edited by AlfistiSA; 02-18-2009 at 06:24 AM. Reason: Spelling !!!
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-19-2009, 12:51 AM
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Lightweight Production numbers - updated

Had a look at Fusi last night. Page 857 shows the total production figures for the ’56 cars

• 1956 No 252 Vetture Tipo Giulietta Sprint Veloce

From Page 858

• 1957 No 458 Vetture Tipo Giulietta Sprint Veloce

This totals at 710 over 2 years,

Fusi Page 839 shows

• 1956 - Giulietta Sprint Veloce 750E
Autotelaio - 1493*01439 to 1493*03545
Motore – 1315 30001 to 1315 30266

• 1957 - Giulietta Sprint Veloce 750E
Autotelaio - 1493*03546 to 1493*06008
Motore – 1315 30267 to 1315 30761


Allowing that the chassis numbers are interspersed with Normale’s, the easiest way of counting the SV’s is by engine numbers as they all run consecutively. Fusi figures show 710 total build, the engines show 761.

The ’56 and ’57 Spider Veloce’s all shared the same engine numbers as the Sprint Veloce’s, Fusi shows 18 Spider Veloce’s made in ’56 and 32 in ’57, this accounts for 50 of the engines, bringing the engine numbers down to 711 – this corresponds with the production numbers in Fusi on page 857 and 858, totalling 710 engines.

Allowing that quite a few engines required replacement fairly early on in the SV lightweight’s racing career, it is entirely possible that at least 100 engines went this way, although the presence of un-numbered Factory Replacement Block’s does present an argument that all replacement engines were un-numbered, if we accept this, then we must accept that the Fusi figure of 710 and the calculation I have done above, of 711, represents the total Sprint Veloce Lightweight production figures.

Of course if the Factory supplied NUMBERED blocks, and we count the engines that went into the 750SS's and the Asardo's, the G Production Spiders, etc, etc then we're back to about 600 cars as per my post above........

We know that SVC production started in September ’57, they were listed at the same price as the Lightweights = ¼ million Lira.

Fusi chassis numbers show 1493*06008 as being the end of ’57 production for Sprints, (both Normale and Veloce), D’Amico & Tabbucci show 05834, 05865 and 05869 as SVC’s with chassis numbers lower than 06008.
Some early SVC build details I do have:
1493E*06046, build date 6 February ’58 – Robert Marksteiner, Austria
1493E*06064, build date 8 February ’58 – Nick la Spiga, South Africa
1493E*06127, build date 20 February ’58 – Ex Roderick Ketterer, South Africa
1493E*06138, build date 10 February ’58 – no owner details
1493E*06193, build date 6 February ’58 – Greig Smith, South Africa
1493E*06230, build date 29 January ’58 – Kees de Putter, Holland
The SVC build numbers, together with all the face-lift, (101 nose type), Sprint Veloce’s from the remainder of 1958 total at 409, removing the first 3 SVC chassis numbers below Fusi’s cut-off of 06008 for the end of ’57 gives a total of 406 against Fusi’s 401 for total Sprint Veloce build for 1958.

Lastly, for what it’s worth, Alfa have always given the cut-off for the new pressed sheet metal body build as 1493*06600, which was in fact a 750E - 1493E*06600, however records show that a further eleven 750E cars were made, culminating in 1493E*06611, which could conceivably be the very last pure 750 made, before the change to the new 101 type facelift.

Ciao
Greig

A total of 600 or 710/711 Lightweights......... donning the flame-proof suit as I type

Last edited by AlfistiSA; 02-19-2009 at 12:55 AM. Reason: Spelling.... sigh
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-22-2009, 11:44 PM
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Dear Matt and Greig,

Don't forget the evidence that Alfazagato Stuart owns 1493E*04700, Bertone 77500, establishing a KNOWN example that high (500), and to subtract your 199 confortovoles from the 711 total. Lionel's car is 06611.

Laurence
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 02-23-2009, 02:16 AM
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Lightweight Production Numbers - including Bertone Body Numbers

Hi Laurence

The 710 / 711 total is just for '56 and '57 Lightweights and excludes the 3 Confortevole's with chassis numbers below 06008 (this is Fusi's cut-off number).
The Confortevole's were built in '58 and counted separately to the 710/711 number.

Another factor to consider is the Bertone Body Number, (not to be confused with the Chassis number on the firewall) – although we tend to overlook this seemingly unimportant number on the scuttle, it has certain unique characteristics. All Lightweight’s are 77XXX, while all Sprint Normale’s are 65XXXX, and all Confortevole’s are 65XXXX*A*. The uniqueness of the Lightweight Body Number means that we can track consecutive Lightweights via this number. From “The Italian Car Registry” we get:



Year - Bertone Body Number - AR Chassis Number

1956
77018 - AR1493*01648
77025 - AR1493E*01722
77034 - AR1493 *01806
77048 - AR1493*01889
77111 - AR1493E*02209
77117 - AR1493E*02239
77184 - AR1493E*02578
77313 - AR 1493E*03798
1957
77336 - AR1493 *03877
77393 - AR1493E*04067
77411 - AR1493E*04127
77468 - AR1493E*04347
77498 - AR1493E*04447
77500 - AR1493E*04700 – engine 1315*30481, 19 April '57
Thus it can be seen that the Bertone Body Number provides an indisputable tracking opportunity, I’ve included Alfazagato’s (Stuart) 750E, 04700, a Conrero owned & prepared Lightweight, where the engine & chassis numbers are fairly close, however in the Hughes and Da Prato book, “The Racing Veloce’s” the Authors noted that engines which delivered top horsepower on the Factory Dyno, were ‘set-aside’ for ‘special’ customers, thus the engine and chassis numbers don’t always concur.

I've heard quite a few learned folk offer a number of '800' x 750 Sprint Veloce's made, (Lightweight + Confortevole), although this is hearsay, it does tie in with a figure of 600 (+ some extra engines) for the lightweights, plus 199 Confortevole's, making the +- 800 total. If we assume that the correct figure for the lightweights is indeed 710 / 711, then we total at just over 900 Sprint Veloce 750 Series made.

Given that my SVC, 1493E06193, (the 36th SVC made) has engine 30800, then we can see that by early ’58, the engines already outnumbered the bodies & the consecutive engine numbers of the Veloce motors have been used in the calculation of 710 / 711 cars.

I would offer that at the end of pure 750E production, (before the change to the 101 type nose), that the engines outnumbered the chassis and that allowing for engines used in the G Production Spiders, the Asardo cars, 750SS's together with Factory replacements & a somewhat loose record keeping at Portello during the '50's, the correct production figure for 750E was around 800, with 199 of those being Confortevole’s, hence I would suggest that the correct production figure for the Lightweights tends towards 600 in total.

My 0.02 Lira's worth, anyway.

Ciao
Greig

Last edited by AlfistiSA; 02-23-2009 at 02:49 AM. Reason: Sorting out the indents of the numbers
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 10:55 PM
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Dear Greig,

Look at how the Bertone body number 65xxxx trails the Alfa Romeo serial number 1943*xxxxx by single digits at 01398, yet it increases to a difference of 611 before 05021; and stays with 610 to 614 all the way to the 101 transition, 10000. Could these 611 bodies be the 77xxx series pulled from the production series ?

Laurence
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 11:03 PM
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Hello Laurence

Yes, I believe that you have hit the nail on the head and this supports the premise that there were +- 600 Lightweights built.

Best regards
Greig
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 03-01-2009, 11:37 PM
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I find this to be an interesting thread and will be watching it closely. Being that I have used Fusi numbers to document the cars on the Veloce Register, there will have to be some sort of changes in the future, as to what those changes will be, at this point I have no clue.
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-03-2009, 07:20 PM Thread Starter
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All,

First pass at the production and register page is up on my blog. I tried correct, or at least rationalized, a lot of the problems I found trying to fit known cars with Fusi production lists. Some examples:

No 00118 Veloce engines
Included 10105, 10104, 10124, 10125 etc USA Tipo codes.
Corrected the about 1000 each 350001 & 370001 Giulietta Sprints and Spiders with 1300 Engines and Giulia Bodies.
Split the various Sprint Veloces available in 57/58 between SVA/SVC/SV
Included some known prototypes
Linked vins to cars where appropriate, mostly my market write ups.

Still trying to figure out what happened to 10123 1600 Spider numbers, it seems to jump all over between 63 and 65. Late cars are not my priority so I left them alone for now, just recording the existing car numbers where they seem to fit. Anyone care to sort this out?

Where possible I have included all the verifiable information I could find, Bertone and Pininfarina body numbers, original and current engine numbers, original paint colors, build date, current country of residence etc.

If you want to check it out it's at: Production & Register « giulietta sprints check back often, as I will be updating it almost daily.

Future updates will include pictures of original VIN plates from each range and updates as I find them and feature change breaks (open vs closed sills on Sprints and the like).

If I included your car with the wrong information let me know. If I haven't included your car and you'd like to see it listed among its peers let me know.

Thanks.

A Sprint
A Spider
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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-04-2009, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
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Okay,

It was pointed out that d'A & T have the 10123 ranges pretty well sorted out. I'll update it next week.

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