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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-06-2008, 02:42 AM Thread Starter
 
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Indentification of an Alfa Romeo

Recently I found a picture of this Alfa on the internet. It is described as a 412 in 1939, nothing more.
Is there anyone who can tell me more about this car ? I like to know the race in which it took part, the year and the driver.
There is a model of this car made by Brumm. They described it as a 8C 2900B, which drove in the GP Bremgarten in 1948, but I think this is incorrect.
I hope that someone can provide me with the correct data.
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-06-2008, 04:23 AM
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Have a look here Translated version of http://www.alfaklub.dk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=183:2 00301&catid=66:30til39&Itemid=87

1939
GROOTE PRIJS VAN ANTWERPEN
Antwerpen (B) 21 MAY 1939
3 heats * 100 km

1 Farina (Alfa Romeo 412)
2 Sommer (Alfa Romeo 412)
3 Monneret (Delage Olympic)
4 Levegh (Talbot T150C)
5 Talbot (Aston Martin)
6 Forestier (Talbot)


GRAND PRIX DU CENTENAIRE
Luxembourg (L), 4 JUNE 1939
10 starters

1 Wimille (Bugatti T57S45)
2 Biondetti (Alfa Romeo 412)
3 Levegh (Talbot T150C)
4 Mazaud (Delahaye 135CS)
5 E Villoresi (Alfa Romeo 2990B)
6 ?


LES 24 HEURES DU MANS
CIRCUIT DE LA SARTHE (F), 17-18 JUNE 1939

1 Wimille/Veyron (Bugatti T57C)
2 Gérard/Monneret (Delage Olympic)
3 Dobson/Brackenbury (Langoda V12)
4 Selsdon/Waleran (Langoda V12)
5 von Schaumburg-Lippe/
Wencher (BMW 328)
6 Villeneuve/Biolay (Delahaye 135CS)


GRAND PRIX DU COMMINGES
ST GAUDENS (F) 6 AUGUST 1939
440 km

1 Le Bègue (Talbot MD 90)
2 Wimille (Bugatti T59/50B)
3 Sommer (Talbot MD 90)
4 Gérard (Delage Olympic)
5 Levegh (Talbot T150C)
6 Villeneuve/Biolay (Delahaye 135CS)


TARGA ABRUZZO
PESCARA (I) 15 AUGUST 1939
8 h, 20? starters [8 hour race]

1 Righetti/Rangoni (Alfa Romeo 2500SS)
2 Pintacuda/Severi (Alfa Romeo 2500SS))
3 Leonardi/Dei (Alfa Romeo 2500)
4 Cornaggia Medici/Gobbato (Alfa Romeo 2500)
5 Belucci/Paganelli (Lancia Aprilia)
6 Dufour/Dufour (Fiat 1500)


The 8C 2900B is described here Alfa Romeo 8C - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thanks
John

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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-07-2008, 03:06 PM Thread Starter
 
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Thank you for your help. After following the link on top of your reply I came to the conclusion that the picture is from 1948 and propably taken before the race "Preis vom Bremgarten". This was a sportscar race in which Willy-Peter Daetwyler (a Swiss citizen) came in as 5th. The race was held in Switzerland, near Bern. The car is red with a white hood and red/white were the racing colors of Switzerland. I could not find if the car in that race ran with number 36.

Regards,
Simon
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-07-2008, 03:41 PM
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FYI: According to this web page, Daetwyler drove a 6C 2500 in the 1948 race (and placed 5th, one lap behind the winner). However, the pages for 1949, 1950 and 1951 list Daetwyler winning the sportscar race in an Alfa 412. The 1949 page contains a small picture of the car with the bonnet painted in body color. Therefore the picture above (and the one below from this eBay store) are likely from the 1950 and 1951 races.

BTW: This thread on the Atlas Forum says Daetwyler bought the car (chassis number 412152, possibly renumbered from 412038) from Alfa on 18-May-49. The car has been rebodied and is now in the Schlumpf museum. The Brumm model information seems to be incorrect (not 8C 2900).
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-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]

Last edited by tubut; 11-07-2008 at 05:10 PM.
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-09-2008, 01:51 PM
 
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According to Simon Moore's "The Immortal 2.9" (one of the best carbooks ever made...and everyone is looking forward to see the next edition in the very nearby future...) the picture is from the 2.9 (NOT 6C2500) with chassisnumber 412038... (P. 207-209).The car had a 12-cylinder engine. Daetwyler won the Grand Prix of Bern every year from 1949 to 1954.
I think that Brumm's information is not that wrong.... (the 12C-2.9 car being part of the whole 2.9 family...) The car with another body can be seen this day in the Schlumpf collection in Mulhouse (France).
Probably Simon will have some more information in he new edition....

Ciao,

Luc

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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 11-17-2008, 11:14 AM Thread Starter
 
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After some more searching I came to the conclusion that the car with number 34 ran in 1950 and the car with number 36 in 1951, both in the "Preis vom Bremgarten".
I have attached a small and not so good picture of the race of 1951. The car on the right is Daetwyler's Alfa. The white hood of the car is visible. On the front wings the number can be seen. One digit is a 'three', the other is less visible, but clearly not a 'four', a 'six' is more likely.
The model Brumm made is in fact not correct as they modeled a 8C 2900B and not a 412. For me, not an Alfa specialist. one clear difference is the radiator. I think the rest of the body work looks much the same.
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-11-2008, 12:02 PM
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The new edition of Simon Moore's "The Immortal 2.9" gives the following race numbers for this car (in chronological order):

#32 1949 Berne (original body and paint)
#12 1949 Lausanne (modified air intake)
#34 1950 Erlen (white bonnet)
#24 1950 Berne
#56 1950 Geneva
#60 1950 Berne
#14 1951 Erlen
#80 1953 Berne
#94 1954 Berne

There are also pictures of other numbers showing the car at hillclimbs without mentioning them in the text, but Race No. 36 is not shown or mentioned.

So, the picture with Race No. 34 is Erlen (not Berne) in 1950. Race No. 60 is given for Berne, 1951 (citing pictures that appeared in two books -- but without seeing those books, we cannot tell whether they show the same picture and if that information is correct). So, Race No. 36 remains a bit of a mystery.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 06:50 AM
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Ruedi is right, and I wish to complete some of the info.

1) in his new book, Moore no longer supports the assumption that the 412s 412151 and 412152 be 8C2900 chassis 412037 and 412038 renumbered. It could be as there is no trace of 8Cs with those chassis numbers, but it would be pure guess.

2) Brumm is indeed wrong in the denomination of the car: it is NOT an 8C2900. The chassis is pretty similar, but the body is not. But Brumm's 8C2900 model is a shame. The grille looks like an 8C2900A, the side has the MM38 typical slots, and the rear is total invention!! So here we have a model car that's wrong both per designation and per shape... It may also be noted here that, instead, the 412 body is very similar to the 6C2500SS (Tipo256) "siluro", with the exception of a slightly larger grille hosting a larger radiator. Indeed, in period publications, Alfa itself printed a 412 picture captioned as 256!

I have been posting pictures of the rear of 8C2900 MM38, 8C2900A, 412 and Brumm model for comparison here

3) Daetwyler indeed raced the 412 first in unsupercharged form, then shortly after with blowers. But from 1953, the car got a new body, seemingly by Michelotti. Here below the 412 in original form and #60 at the Bregarten GP 1951 (i.e. at Bern) and with #80 and new body in 1953

4) This leaves us with the question unanswered: where did Daetwyler race with #36, I'm sure I have the answer somewhere, but alas not in this computer. Yet it is a very well known photo.
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by gtv2000 View Post
But from 1953, the car got a new body, seemingly by Michelotti.
Just for clarification, the book says that during a dinner after the 1951 or 1952 San Bernardo hillclimb, "Michelotti designed a new lighter body on the paper tablecloth, which was then taken to a Zurich coachbuilder to turn into metal."

When I looked at the table in Simon Moore's book again, I noticed that there are NO race results for 1952. Moore's information that the 1952 Grand Prix in Berne was not held is wrong. The 1952 page of the Grand Prix Suisse web site mentions that Daetwyler participated in this race in a "rented" Ferrari 340 and that his Alfa was being rebuilt.

The entry list for the 1952 24-hour race in LeMans lists Daetwyler/de Graffenried on Alfa as DNA. Although pure speculation on my part, the LeMans entry gives me the impression that some unforeseen event may have prevented the car from participating in these races in May and June of 1952.

Some sources indicate that the San Bernardo hillclimb was late in the season (but I couldn't find any dates for 1951 and 1952). Given the timeline of missed races in 1952, I tend to believe the above mentioned dinner with Michelotti and the resulting design of the new body would most likely have happened in 1951. One possibility is that they started to make changes to the car in late 1951 and that it was a "little bit more work than anticipated" -- i.e. the car just wasn't ready in time for the whole 1952 season. Another possibility is an accident we don't know of.

BTW: Moore also makes reference to (and shows a picture of) the car being involved in an accident in the 1950 "Sierra Montana" hillclimb. I'm almost certain that no such place exists in Switzerland and the surrounding area. The race was probably the "Sierre - Montana-Crans" hillclimb in the French-speaking part of Switzerland.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]

Last edited by tubut; 12-12-2008 at 02:37 PM.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 06:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gtv2000 View Post
Ruedi is right, and I wish to complete some of the info.

1) in his new book, Moore no longer supports the assumption that the 412s 412151 and 412152 be 8C2900 chassis 412037 and 412038 renumbered. It could be as there is no trace of 8Cs with those chassis numbers, but it would be pure guess.

2) Brumm is indeed wrong in the denomination of the car: it is NOT an 8C2900. The chassis is pretty similar, but the body is not. But Brumm's 8C2900 model is a shame. The grille looks like an 8C2900A, the side has the MM38 typical slots, and the rear is total invention!! So here we have a model car that's wrong both per designation and per shape... It may also be noted here that, instead, the 412 body is very similar to the 6C2500SS (Tipo256) "siluro", with the exception of a slightly larger grille hosting a larger radiator. Indeed, in period publications, Alfa itself printed a 412 picture captioned as 256!

I have been posting pictures of the rear of 8C2900 MM38, 8C2900A, 412 and Brumm model for comparison here

3) Daetwyler indeed raced the 412 first in unsupercharged form, then shortly after with blowers. But from 1953, the car got a new body, seemingly by Michelotti. Here below the 412 in original form and #60 at the Bregarten GP 1951 (i.e. at Bern) and with #80 and new body in 1953

4) This leaves us with the question unanswered: where did Daetwyler race with #36, I'm sure I have the answer somewhere, but alas not in this computer. Yet it is a very well known photo.

I did not know the car actually raced with the Michelotti designed body that appears to be very similar to what is on it now, in the Schlumpf Museum. As to the photo of the Tipo 412 with race number 36, can the picture be blown up enough to see what is on the sign behind the car? The Brumm model is a total fantasy.


As I do not have the new edition of the Simon Moore book as yet, how many Tipo 412s does he come up with, and what are the chassis numbers? I assume neither of the cars pictured was the 1951 MM car with Vignale body...

Thanks,
Stu

Last edited by dretceterini; 12-12-2008 at 06:37 PM.
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-12-2008, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by dretceterini View Post
I did not know the car actually raced with the Michelotti designed body that appears to be very similar to what is on it now, in the Schlumpf Museum. As to the photo of the Tipo 412 with race number 36, can the picture be blown up enough to see what is on the sign behind the car?
Moore mentions that the Michelotti design was such that "the second body could have the wings removed so that 412152 could be run as an open wheeler and it also featured a 158-style open grille." There is a picture that shows the car without wings at the 1953 Aosta - San Bernardo hillclimb.

Regarding #36: Great eye, Stu! I located the original picture via this page. The cropped area shown below clearly shows "Geneve" (Geneva). The car seemed to have been red in 1949, painted with a white bonnet for 1951. This means the picture is either from 1950 or 1951. Moore lists Race No. 56 for 1950 Geneva (maybe it was Race No. 36 and not 56?) but no info for 1951.

I let Patrick answer the question about how many 412. He knows more about these cars than I do and I have not yet read the whole section.
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-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-13-2008, 04:08 AM
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I've found Daetwyler's 412 #36. The picture reproduced here was in Moore's 1st edition without precision of the location, yet indicated as coming from Alfa Romeo's archives: hence it is to be seen quite often. Moore wrote an article on 412s in Thoroughbred and Classic Cars november 1981 where another pic with #36 appears, wrongly captioned as "Bremgarten postwar". But the background with white/red curbs should have helped, and eventually in A. Cimarosti's book "Grand Prix Suisse", there is one further pic with #36 and others of the racing course and painted curbs.
It is the "Prix de l'ACS" (Automobile Club de Suisse), Geneva (as from the detail here above), July 30th 1950, race won by Daetwyler, 26 laps in 52'59"1 at 117,769km/h, with a 3 laps (!) gap over the second, Albert Scherrer in a Jaguar XK120. The 412 ran there with blowers.

As for Simon's opinion on the number of 412s built, Stu, I know your obsession, and I had preventively already answered you here.
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-13-2008, 04:55 AM Thread Starter
 
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gtv2000 thank you for your research. This was really helpful.

Simon
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-13-2008, 05:07 AM
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gtv2000 thank you for your research. This was really helpful.

Simon
May I ask which quiz I have indirectly won?
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 12-13-2008, 08:25 AM Thread Starter
 
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It was all about the BRUMM model (S010) of this car. I called in the help of this forum to get the correct data. And I am very pleased that there are Alfa history specialists out there.
Thank you again for all your help.
Regards,
Simon
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