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Engine Seized?

84K views 576 replies 50 participants last post by  PSk 
#1 · (Edited)
This evening, I did a few minor things to my '88 Veloce. I put some stop-leak in the radiator, some STP in the oil, and set out to hoon it for about 10-20 minutes (with the heater wide open and the top down) to let the stop-leak take effect. The car runs and drives great, and I was looking forward to a little starlight, top-down driving.

In less than 5 minutes, I was stopped at a traffic light on a hill when the engine died. I had the radio cranked pretty loud, and I thought I had simply killed it with bad clutch technique. I went to restart it, it caught and immediately died again. When I tried to crank it again, it turned over reluctantly...ok, something is wrong. I coasted it to a parking lot, walked back to the house to get my Avalanche and tools, and returned to the car.

Long story short, the starter could hardly turn the engine...even with the Avalanche connected via jumper cables. There were no indications prior to the engine stopping: oil pressure, electrical, temp...all indicated normal, with no warning lights. The radiator cap and oil cap were securely fastened. In fact, I hadn't even got the engine up to temperature to circulate the stop-leak; I can still see it floating in the neck of the radiator.

I towed it home, put it in the driveway, and put the battery charger on it. It showed 59% charge, which seems reasonable considering the cranking attempts, and towing it home with the flashers on. I pulled the plugs and put a scope down the holes...nothing out of the ordinary; the plugs show normal proper wear. I cranked it briefly with the plugs out, but again, would barely turn.

There are no unusual leaks, it made no strange noises, and as I mentioned above, it gave no indication of impending failure.

It would seem that I have a seized engine (with a radiator containing uncirculated stop-leak)...and I don't know why. I guess another possibility is that the starter suddenly went bad, but that doesn't explain the first failed start attempt.

It's going to sit tonight while I ponder this. I cannot think of anything I would have done to cause this, but coincidence is rare. I searched the BB and internet for relevant information before starting this thread, but obviously found nothing useful.

If anyone has any wisdom, I'm all ears.

NOTE: This story has a happy ending. See post #541 HERE for a summary of the project and lessons learned.
 
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#6 ·
Checked that; all clean and good. It appears the starter is trying. When I try to crank the engine (which by the way, this morning will not rotate at all), the headlights dim out, and the aftermarket stereo will reset.

The battery was on a charger all night, and has been otherwise OK.
 
#9 ·
How bad was the radiator leaking and from where? I wonder if the leak was the result water not being able to circulate back into the engine, and resulting in higher than usual pressure somewhere to cause the leak.

I am not sure on these cars having never run any of mine out of radiator water, but the temperature gauge might not tell you much if its not 'wet'. I know why my Chrysler sludge motor died I never saw a high temp reading. Once the oil got into the water and clogged the channels the temp gauge read real low.
 
#11 ·
The frustrating thing is that none of these issues were critical (radiator, oil).

The radiator leak was just an annoyance, and when I added the stop leak, I ensured the level was topped off. My first thought was that the water pump had seized, but I'd only driven the car perhaps 3 minutes (less than a mile from my house); didn't even get it up to temperature. When I looked things over in the driveway, I could see the stop leak still floating at the top of the neck in the radiator.
 
#10 ·
Did you look down the plug holes to see if there is coolant in the combustion chamber?

If it is not hydraulically locked then it sounds like either a seized camshaft or crankshaft. I thought maybe something might have fallen into a timing chain sprocket and locked it but that would not account for it turning slowly before it locked up.

The next step maybe to pop the valve cover, slacken the timing chain and try to see what is stuck.
 
#12 ·
The scope showed nothing unusual in the cylinders. Couldn't see any scoring, no debris or anything.

I think you're right...take the valve cover off, and start to see exactly what's stuck.
 
#17 ·
No silver bullet fix it sounds like. When an engine seizes it usually doesn't roll slowly to a stop. It's an immediate stop, followed by sounds you may not recognize. I would remove the starter as a first step. This will eliminate a stuck starter drive. With starter removed you can push car forward while in gear. Removing the cam cover will aid you in watching camshaft for movement. Removing the spark plugs and inserting a long screwdriver will also show piston movement.
Good luck, Jon
 
#20 ·
Agree. I can't describe a mechanism that would allow STP to create a seizure either. Even if the higher viscosity locked up the oil pump, the pump shaft would have sheared, allowing the car to still roll while in gear.

But you have to admit that it's odd to have an Alfa that was running fine before STP, yet locked up a few miles after adding it. Could be a coincidence, but ....
 
#21 ·
If I borrow from Occam's Razor, the simplest answer is the right one.

I either dropped something down the oil hole (although I cannot find anything missing), or there was something in the STP.

Either way, it doesn't sound like it's going to be simple, cheap, quick, or easy.
 
#23 ·
I have a similar problem with a Duetto. A mechanic friend mentioned that the issue could have been caused by ethanol in the gasoline 'washing' oil from the cylinders and causing the piston rings to weld themselves to the cylinder walls.

So far, I have tried 'Engine Release', 'Marvel Mystery Oil' and 'Evapo-rust' to no avail. I suspect the engine will have to come back out and be rebuilt again, after barely 33 years.

Mark
 
#25 ·
Since there is oil in the engine,it can be drained out and inspected for debris from failed bearings.
I seriously doubt the starter is causing the problem as the car does not roll in gear. @Shakey-Have you tried starting the engine with the clutch pedal depressed and with it not depressed? Just to eliminate the trans as the cause of your problem.
 
#27 ·
I'm hoping to start taking a serious look at the Alfa tomorrow. I have to tidy up a few other projects first, before I can start troubleshooting in earnest.

I got the wife's '76 Super Beetle put back together today, and will test-drive it tomorrow. I'm also going to try and finish the Alfa's 3D printed door trim tomorrow as well. Cleaning up after those projects will give me the space I need to start spreading out engine parts in the garage!

I appreciate all the ideas and observations everyone has contributed. It's good to have a sounding board to ensure I'm thinking straight. I appreciate this site, and those on it!

I'm on a VW board for my old beetles, and the culture there is quite different. One would think that air-cooled VW folks would be laid back, but NO. A lot of sniping, flames, and talking down to people new to the VW scene. As an example, a guy posted a photo of his VW engine compartment, asking for help with a specific problem. It was like a feeding frenzy, with several people telling him what he was doing 'wrong' with his engine, and why he's stupid, maybe he shouldn't even own a Bug, etc. He finally got some honest help. Not a good culture.

Thanks again guys, I'll keep you posted on my findings.
 
#31 ·
Shakey - I agree with what you say about this forum. I visit several others and this is one of the most helpful, and most supportive. Yes, there is joking around and good-natured ribbing, but i don't think anyone is ever made to feel stupid. We all have a chance at that all on our own. I will be very interested in what you find is wrong...

Veronica
 
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#35 ·
Ever try to rotate the motor by turning the alternator pulley? Even with the spark plugs out the belt slips. I don't believe that a frozen alternator or water pump could hold up against a starter motor.
 
#36 ·
In between today's rain showers, I too my first good look at the engine.

I should start with full disclosure: I've had my Alfa for four years, and have hardly had to do anything to the engine in that time. I had to repair the Aux Air Valve when I first got the car, and have occasionally had to change a hose to eliminate a vacuum leak. I've adjusted the idle speed. I've only changed the spark plugs once.

My engagement with this car has been electrical, propshaft, trans/clutch, brakes, electric windows, and heater fan...oh, and fixing other stupid stuff the PO has done. The car drives good, runs good, and sounds good out of the tailpipe. ...Or at least it did.

Two ongoing problems are:
1) small radiator leak; requiring topping off about once every two months. Never leaves a puddle, but I end up with dried antifreeze residue on the radiator in a couple of places.
2) head gasket seeps oil down the left side of the engine block. A little oil goes a long way; it doesn't take much to make things messy. The car will eventually leave an oil spot on the floor if it sits long enough. I have to add a quart of oil every 2 months or so.

Both problems were more of an 'annoyance' than a 'concern'.

A good daylight visual inspection revealed nothing unusual. I did loosen the alternator, and was able to turn it and the water pump by hand.

I did find a mystery part, probably unrelated to my current situation. This small item was hanging by its wires at the right rear corner of the radiator, by the air conditioning canister.





If this were a helicopter, I would say that's a temperature sensor that mounts to our generators. Not sure what it is; haven't found it in the manual yet. I'm surprised I haven't noticed it before.

I've taken documentary photos, and I'm going to pull the valve covers as soon as the rain stops again.
 
#38 ·
Pull the cam cover off and see how the cams / chain etc look. Get a ?1 5/8? Socket to turn the crank nut ; see if u can turn it. If not remove the cams by taking cam caps off both sides and now see if u can turn it (with trans in neutral) . This is assuming it's a motor issue not a trans issue. If u can turn with cams out then ok. If not I'd remove starter (remove battery first) and try. If no go it's motor out hello bottom end
 
#39 ·
I took the valve cover off. The two metal washers were up front, instead of in the rear. The other washers that are supposed to be fiber, I think were entirely made of RTV silicone; they were pretty deteriorated. The left rear bolt was only on finger-tight...its fiber/silicone washer was completely gone.

Inside, everything looks clean and well-oiled. There's no play or lash in the cams or chain.



Which brings me to my next thought, "How am I going to get this timing chain loose? God only knows where the master link could possbily be." I inspected the chain...and as evidence of a virtuous life, the engine has stopped with the master link right over the exhaust camshaft. If I recall @Vintre's instructions though, the clip is facing the wrong way.



It's becoming readily apparent that a PO has had this engine apart, and probably operated without the benefit of a shop manual or AlfaBB!

I'm going to take the chains loose this evening, and see what I find next.
 
#40 ·
you can pull the cams without taking the chain off, but if its easy to get to, go ahead and remove it. You will only be able to take off the upper chain. DONT rotate the motor with the chain off and cams in place. Remove the cams first.
 
#41 ·
I got the timing chain apart, didn't even drop any pieces!

The camshafts don't move, but I'm not sure I should expect them to, since they're resting against the backpressure of the valve springs?

At this point, I'm unsure what my course of action is. The workshop manual is underwhelming in regards to troubleshooting this sort of problem. If I remove the camshafts, is there a way to determine correct valve operation?

Beyond that, I guess I can pull the whole head, and look down the cylinders. I have to find something eventually.

I have to look at this as an opportunity: I wanted to replace that head gasket anyway, as well as replace the engine mounts. I'd been debating yanking the radiator and taking it to a radiator shop. Now I have an excuse to get an engine hoist and engine stand.

Where's that recipe for lemonade?
 
#43 ·
The camshafts don't move, but I'm not sure I should expect them to, since they're resting against the backpressure of the valve springs?
Well, yes, they are "resting against the backpressure of the valve springs". But if you rotate the cams more than a few degrees, the valves will be resting against the pistons! An Alfa engine is what's called an "interference engine" - the valves and pistons occupy the same space, ideally not at the same time.

So as goats advises, remove the cams before attempting to rotate the crankshaft with the chain disconnected. That way, all 8 valves are fully retracted, and will miss the pistons.
 
#42 ·
don't try to move the camshafts. Just take them out. remove the cam caps and remove the cams. About 5 minutes work

AND get the right size socket to fit on the crank nut and try turning it clockwise. Make sure the chain doesn't get hung up ---
 
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