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Engine Seized?

84K views 576 replies 50 participants last post by  PSk 
#1 · (Edited)
This evening, I did a few minor things to my '88 Veloce. I put some stop-leak in the radiator, some STP in the oil, and set out to hoon it for about 10-20 minutes (with the heater wide open and the top down) to let the stop-leak take effect. The car runs and drives great, and I was looking forward to a little starlight, top-down driving.

In less than 5 minutes, I was stopped at a traffic light on a hill when the engine died. I had the radio cranked pretty loud, and I thought I had simply killed it with bad clutch technique. I went to restart it, it caught and immediately died again. When I tried to crank it again, it turned over reluctantly...ok, something is wrong. I coasted it to a parking lot, walked back to the house to get my Avalanche and tools, and returned to the car.

Long story short, the starter could hardly turn the engine...even with the Avalanche connected via jumper cables. There were no indications prior to the engine stopping: oil pressure, electrical, temp...all indicated normal, with no warning lights. The radiator cap and oil cap were securely fastened. In fact, I hadn't even got the engine up to temperature to circulate the stop-leak; I can still see it floating in the neck of the radiator.

I towed it home, put it in the driveway, and put the battery charger on it. It showed 59% charge, which seems reasonable considering the cranking attempts, and towing it home with the flashers on. I pulled the plugs and put a scope down the holes...nothing out of the ordinary; the plugs show normal proper wear. I cranked it briefly with the plugs out, but again, would barely turn.

There are no unusual leaks, it made no strange noises, and as I mentioned above, it gave no indication of impending failure.

It would seem that I have a seized engine (with a radiator containing uncirculated stop-leak)...and I don't know why. I guess another possibility is that the starter suddenly went bad, but that doesn't explain the first failed start attempt.

It's going to sit tonight while I ponder this. I cannot think of anything I would have done to cause this, but coincidence is rare. I searched the BB and internet for relevant information before starting this thread, but obviously found nothing useful.

If anyone has any wisdom, I'm all ears.

NOTE: This story has a happy ending. See post #541 HERE for a summary of the project and lessons learned.
 
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#75 ·
We're thinking alike! I had to go back and ensure that I had already taken the bolts out.

I finally got the head off. I eventually broke it free with the spark plug tools, but then it would only raise a couple of inches. I kept hitting the studs with WD-40, and used an engine hoist to keep vertical pressure on it. It finally wriggled free. There was a lot of gunk on the studs from oil seeping into the coolant.

I didn't expect to find a smoking gun in the heads, having already eliminated that possibility by removing the camshafts. It did give me a first good look at the pistons and sleeves. Other than what I guess is normal carbon build-up, nothing unusual there.

I picked up an engine hoist from HF earlier this week. $169, plus I had a $50 off coupon...what a bargain! I also scored some 6"x6" square pipe to make an engine stand adapter...although, since I'm dropping the trans before I yank the engine, I could use the rear bellhousing to mount it.
 
#76 ·
I've used a 1/2 inch impact gun on the head pullers and never had a spark plug thread to strip. But the head pullers I was using were Alfa factory ones. The trick to getting a stuck head off. Is getting to move it up and done even a little bit. Keep soaking the studs from the top with rust penetrant. PB blaster, Kroil and/or Mopar Rust Penetrant. All of these are the best ones to use especially the last 2.

When you get it to move up spray the studs some more then take a rubber mallet and knock the head back down. Kept repeating this. It will come off if you can get it moving. Some heads can just take time to get off.
 
#77 · (Edited)
Two things I forgot to mention:

1) The head gasket was complete crap. It looked like it was seeping oil everywhere.

2) Neither my head or block have the three notorious oil channels at the back...the ones you have to apply sealant around when you put on a new gasket. Is that of any significance?
 
#79 ·
There is someone on the ABB who makes and sells adapters that grip the block but the motor mount threads. Forget the name but will look it up today. I bought one and like the looks of it though I haven't yet used it.
I bought one from Jim Steck many years ago but he no longer makes them. It is simple, a plate welded to a tube with holes to match the engine mount studs. I have seen one made from an old engine mount welded to a tube.
 
#83 ·
Been following this thread for a few days and is fascinating. Great tips from all members. Kevin, I would suggest since you've reached the point of no return with this project, to do a full rebuild of the engine and quite possibly the trans also since you have it out. You'll love the car more for it. If you can diagnose the problem with the tear down, rebuild everything and put it all back together entirely on your own, you are automatically enshrined in the hall of fame on this BB IMHO. Not to mention all the hard to find bits you've helped people with the 3D printing. If you can, please post some pictures of the project. We all love pictures!

BTW, the engine wire clips you printed me a while back are still holding up strong!
 
#84 ·
I found some old correspondence about the engine hoist adapter. The name is Luigi Oldani and he works out of his business Oldani Art Studio in Oakland, CA. I did not find him on the member list but then I don't know his user ID. That's all I know about him but may be able to find an email address if any one is interested.
 
#86 · (Edited)
I made a side mount adapter out of a 10" long piece of 2"x5" rectangular tubing (1/4" thick steel). But I wish I had used a 6"x6" square tube like you have Kevin = makes it easier to attach the nuts inside.
The nice thing about a side mount is that you can rotate the top or bottom or front or rear of the block upwards. Makes it real easy to work on front and rear seals, sump pan, valves, etc.
 

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#88 ·
In my available time today, I plan on dropping the trans. The head provided no clues, and I see nothing amiss looking at the top of the pistons, etc.

It's time to put the engine on a stand, and eviscerate it to find out what's wrong. I'll make the side mount adapter, and affix it in that manner.

My engine overhaul manual arrived in the mail yesterday; I browsed through it briefly. Some good detailed info in there. It actually spells out a procedure to remove the engine while leaving the trans in the car, but I'm going to drop the trans anyway. When I took the shifter out, I noticed it had been seeping oil from the top...one of the rubber items is damaged there, so it's a chance to resolve that problem.

I am contemplating addressing my second gear synchro issue (the usual crunching) while it's out. I'm not sure I want to get that involved with an 'annoyance' in an otherwise fine transmission. It seems that's how I got in this position with the engine in the first place!

@Quadster, unfortunately I am the local friendly Alfa mechanic! There is a guy in town who owns a small auto repair shop, who once owned a Spider. He replaced the clutch for me last year (I provided all the parts), but he's not right for this job.

@fish343434, I appreciate the comments. I'll start including photos. It is tempting to do a full rebuild. There are certainly items I'm going to address while I have the engine out...motor mounts and head gaskets were on my to-do list already. I've discovered a few things that need attention.
 
#89 ·
Kevin, it seems to me that separating the gearbox from the block, and dropping it from below is a lot of extra work. If you are going to pull the engine anyway, why not simply disconnect the propshaft from the gearbox and lift the motor and gearbox together?
 
#91 ·
Because I am doing this by myself, and need to break the components into manageable chunks. I do not believe that I can successfully maneuver the trans/engine pack out of the car without causing other damage. It is difficult enough just to get the hood off without assistance!
 
#92 · (Edited)
Paint = good
Help = 0

My concern is marring the sheetmetal and body work.

I realize that this approach is probably more work. I'm just not confident that I can go the 'big package' route by myself. I think I can do this in smaller bites.
 
#94 ·
Just to get back to your original problem:

As a college freshman, I was driving the ultimate cheap car - 1960 Corvair. North on US 99 for Christmas break thru the passes toward Bakersfield with a bunch of classmates, I stopped for gas. The service guy - yeah, they had them way back then - left the oil cap off the engine.

By the time I got to the flatland, the engine had blown most of the oil out of the car all over everything. The car overheated (it's air-cooled) and eventually melted a piston. I slowly ground to a halt in the middle of nowhere.

Called some friends from the House in Pasadena. They drove the 150 miles to get me and the others and drove us back to Pasadena. Flew home - Southwest was $29 one way anywhere in CA. Took Dads Truck and a tow bar, drove the 250 miles to Greenfield for my car. Towed it home in the central valley's pea soup fog, and spent all of Christmas break rebuilding my engine.

I know your pain!!

Robert
 
#96 ·
Removing the hood solo is near impossible - I certainly can't do that. Replacing it solo would be even harder. So if you have taken your hood off by yourself, pulling the engine without damaging the paint should be easy.
Removing the hood requires the help of your wife or girlfriend for 5 minutes. Pulling the engine + tranny requires competent help for at least 30 minutes and maybe an hour depending on how many times it gets hung up on something.
 
#97 ·
Shakey,
I have to agree with Alfajay and others about pulling the engine and tranny as a unit. I pulled my tranny in May to replace leaking seals, fix the second gear crunch, and do the first gear fix. Getting to the bell housing bolts was very difficult. If I ever have to do any other work on the engine or tranny, I will pull them as a unit.

If you do decide to pull the tranny first, see Vin's transmission rebuild for tips and encouragement. You can do it.
 
#98 ·
@60sRacer, I have a '65 Corvair Monza convertible. 140hp, 4-carb engine. I love that thing! It's been in storage for too many years.

It was parked on a street when a drunk driver rear-ended it. This was two weeks before I had to report to Warrant Officer Candidate School and Initial Entry Rotary-Wing training for the Army. I put it in storage, bought a motorcycle, and lived like Tom Cruise for a year!

At this point, it's going to be a retirement project.

@John533i, a load leveler is an excellent idea! I hadn't even thought of that. $29.99 at HF...will probably be very handy for a solo engine pull.
 
#99 · (Edited)
The trans is out. It went pretty well, with no real issues.

I had first disconnected all the fiddly bits like speedometer cable, flywheel sensors, clutch slave, backup light switch, etc. I separated the drive shaft behind the center bearing, then disconnected the giubo from the trans, and moved the forward section of the driveshaft to the rear.

Since I had removed the FI stuff on the intake side, and the exhaust manifold, I didn't really have problems getting to the two bolts and four nuts that connect the bell housing to the engine.

The only challenge was getting the tilt of the engine/trans right, so I could clear the shift tower and slide the trans to the rear. I loosened the motor mounts, so I could more easily tilt the front of the engine up, and the rear of the trans down. I left the rear bracket on the trans, to use as a handling point. I pulled the trans away from the engine by connecting a ratchet strap between that bracket and the rear axle. A few cranks of the ratchet strap, and the trans slid onto the waiting transmission jack.

When I reinstall the trans, I'm sure new motor mounts will change the geometry a bit. I'll evaluate that when the time comes.

I would say my approach was better than leaving the trans in the car and pulling the engine. With the trans still in, I don't know how one would get enough forward movement of the engine to get the attachment studs clear of the bellhousing. Honestly, I don't think much more work was involved than pulling the engine/trans as a unit. One has to disconnect all the same items; the only difference is inducing the trans to move rearward...the ratchet strap took care of that.

I was somewhat surprised that the clutch plates stayed with the flywheel when I slid the trans off...not how it would work on an air-cooled VW!

So far, things are proceeding as expected. The only other mystery I'e encountered so far is the lack of oil channels at the rear of the block and head. I'm still trying to research that. Tomorrow after church, it's 'yank the engine day'. I have to disconnect the air conditioning compressor. Then I'll need to apply some upward pressure with the hoist to extend the motor mounts so I can get to the lower nuts. The rubber is so collapsed that my wrench cannot get a grip on the nuts.

(There's several jokes' worth of innuendo in the preceding paragraph, so help yourself)

I'm anxious to get this engine on a stand, and finding the source of its 'rotational reluctance'!
 
#102 · (Edited)
Shakey,
Congrats on the easy tranny pull. Having the intake and exhaust manifolds already off would make a big difference in being able to access the bell housing bolts.

A couple of years ago, I bought a spare tranny since I knew that someday I would want to fix the one in the car. All of the syncho sets are indentical, regardless of gear, so I took the spare tranny apart also and grabbed the 4th gear synchro. The 4th gear synchro comes off without using the press. If you are going to want to fix your tranny, you will need a 12 ton hydraulic press and gear puller from HF to press the gears off and back onto the tranny driveshaft. I also used one of the half circle gizmos from the spare tranny to do the first gear fix, which makes first fully synchro. After you get your Alfa on the road again, you will be thankful that you made all of the repairs.

After getting your tranny fixed, it is important to put in two quarts of Redline 75W90RS gear oil. This is the lube made specifically for manual transmissions. I suspect that most of these Alfa tranny's had hypoid oil put into the trannies at some point, which is too slippery to allow the synchros to grab as quickly as they should. Over time, this accelerates the deterioration of the dog teeth, ending with the inevitable crunch.
 
#104 ·
Good info Jim G. Funny thing is I remember buying parts from you at AutoDelta, for the Duetto, over 30 years ago! I was 24ish and I think you were still a teenager. It is good to have someone around who still likes and knows these older Alfas!

Here is a tip from PSA's Facebook page that may help others removing and reinstalling Alfa engines and transmissions:

https://www.facebook.com/SpruellMot...s/pcb.766173690092615/766167236759927/?type=3

Mark
 
#105 · (Edited)
@factotum, I haven't accumulated any extra trans parts yet, so for the time being, I'll probably not worry about the upgrades.

My intent is to clean the trans up, fix the leak at the tower, and get it ready to put back in the car.

I have Redline 75W90NS in the trans now. I don't know what kind of swill the PO had in there when I bought it, but the Redline was a noticeable improvement!

I will start checking Craigslist for Alfa transmissions. I guess you're a true Alfisti when you start hoarding parts!
 
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