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post #16 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 10:43 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris hedley View Post
Hi Mark, I do have a 2600 spider as well ,and have a few parts that may cross over , also think I have somewhere a window winder mechanism, that came from a sprint , Ian is the man in the UK ,he is having some wheels and seat parts from me, Cheers again Chris .
Thanks Chris - my name is Ken actually - I know Ian and met him recently at Bicester Heritage.
Actually, I would like to acquire or make a window winder 'emergency' handle if you have a photo.
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post #17 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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Many thanks Ruedi.

I came to the same 'unicorn' notion too, or mongrel ;-)

I will check the numbers tomorrow to be certain.
I have a spare engine that came with the car so will 'de-crud' that one as it may be the original.
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post #18 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 11:21 AM
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FWIW, I looked up an old spreadsheet I have (from about the year 2000), where AR822218 is listed as a 1963 LHD Sprint belonging to "Dial Aircraft" in the UK (no address info or believable date of last contact), and the color given as Visone (Maroon).

AR822220 is listed as a Rudd RHD conversion, and so are several other chassis numbers in about the same number range (+/- 200 chassis numbers). So, I'd say there's a fairly good chance that (a) Rudd probably converted a batch of cars, and (b) AR822218 may be a Rudd conversion.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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post #19 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 11:26 AM
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Ken
Ruedi is the expert here.. As I recall the AR serial number is slightly "drivers right" and above of the I.D tag that Ruedi has circled in his post. I don't know the engine number of mine off hand but it is most certainly original to the car. I will report that asap. Grigio Grafetti looks really sophisticated and just right for these GT's
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post #20 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 11:30 AM
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BTW, to get info about the original color scheme, I'd request a Certificato di Origine from FCA Heritage (here -- disable ad blockers for the site to see online submission form at the bottom of the page, or use e-mail address given on that page). Keep in mind that we're approaching Feragosto, so they may be slow to respond (weeks rather than days).

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]

Last edited by tubut; 07-29-2019 at 11:37 AM.
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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 01:21 AM
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Hi Ken, so sorry about the name, I am seeing matron at the twilight home about upping my medication. will look at parts and come back to you. Cheers Chris
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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 06:08 AM
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? All 2600s are Unicorns

Some Sprints had paint colour under the bonnet some were black.

My RHD UK spider has US spec over-riders and clear US style indicators .

Alfa and there suppliers just used what they had in the bin to get the next car out of the door

Engines come from a range of numbers for the year and went in the next car that came along etc
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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 02:23 AM Thread Starter
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More exploration ensues!

I have revealed the chassis number and original log book - 822218 - engine number AR00601*03296 so they appear to be original.
I made a typo in the post above.

The original colour was grey shown in the log book. I will be sending to the Historic link for certification.
So, series 1 converted to RHD?
The door handle is as Ruedi requested.
The block casting number shows wear or poor casting.

The engine number in the photo is from my spare - AR00608*00013 - and I haven't a clue where it came from.
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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 06:53 AM
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Hello all
I checked the engine original number on chassis # 822269 Grigio and it is 601-03187
Funny Ken's car is 51 cars older than mine and his engine number as shown in the original booklet
is 9 engines newer than mine. Just sheds some light on the production time line I think.
Ruedi what do you think? Are the Touring Spiders the same engine numeration?
Ric
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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 06:58 AM
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I for got to mention that in your booklet the call the color of your car VISONE if I can read it correctly.
The literal translation for that is MINK. Is that a color?? Mine is called Grigio Grafetti
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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Grint View Post
More exploration ensues!

I have revealed the chassis number and original log book - 822218 - engine number AR00601*03296 so they appear to be original.
I made a typo in the post above.

The original colour was grey shown in the log book. I will be sending to the Historic link for certification.
So, series 1 converted to RHD?
The door handle is as Ruedi requested.
The block casting number shows wear or poor casting.

The engine number in the photo is from my spare - AR00608*00013 - and I haven't a clue where it came from.
Thanks for postig the pictures. They answer several questions: Yes, this seems to be a Series 1 LHD Sprint converted to RHD, with an original LHD engine, and a spare RHD engine that came from a later RHD Sprint/Spider. On both, LHD and RHD cars, Sprint/Spider engines were the same type and number range, therefore there is no information what the original car of the RHD engine might have been.

The casting number on the block (and/or its quality) is insignificant. I believe it was only used for tracking the moulds in the casting process.

As Ric alluded to, neither bodies or engines were build in chassis number or engine number sequence (I'm not sure about whether or not the Bertone numbers body numbers may be in sequence, though). It is conceivable that statistical analysis of a sufficient number of chassis, engine and body numbers could reveal a pattern of production batches and/or batch sizes (say increments of 100 or 250 appearing as clusters), but probably too much time has passed to have a sufficient number of original cars available for studying such academic aspects of how these cars were built. It's nice to have Ric's numbers for comparison.

The papers indicate Visone as body color (see this post for an example). Looking at the pictures posted above, this would also answer the question as to whether or not the engine compartment of this car was body color or chassis black: The paint in the engine compartment seems to be original and appears to me as chassis black.
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-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 02:01 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks again Ric + Ruedi.

So, Visone!
I my be able to get a sample from under the rear light cluster to but if anyone had swatch or other colour data that would be great.
Tricky times today removing the door chrome, quarter light, etc. ... but I got there! :-D

All of the hidden panels are coated in underseal or similar, as is the engine bay, which has probably saved the car from the dreaded rust worm.

Last edited by Ken Grint; 07-31-2019 at 02:10 PM.
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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 02:50 PM
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Tracking down Visone will be an adventure in and by itself, as there are several color codes -- and some of them may be conflicting and/or may have gotten lost in company and/or industry re-organizations:
  • Glasurit currently lists a Visone with code AR-854 that supposedly was used 1960-62 (possibly for 102 Sprint), but they have no formula for it, meaning it's not available from them (possibly because BASF sold off a paint division to PPG in 2008). I never found any other reference or records referring to this 854 number, therefore I don't trust it.
  • A few years ago, Glasurit listed a Visone as AR-011 and AR-128, with reference to the factory code KF-18011. I believe the KF code to be correct, but I have doubts about both, AR-011 (most AR-0xx colors were white) as well as AR-128 (no other references found to that color).
  • One of the best hints probably comes from Alfa Tech. Bulletin 0.00.038 from 1965 (see here), which lists KF 18011 as "Mink Brown" (only used on 2600 Sprint) with "Alfa Code Ref old" as 20723, of which the last 3 digits usually became the modern AR color code, i.e. AR-723 (the bulletin also lists Ditzler mixture code 22490). The same color was also mentioned years ago on the Glasurit web site with Glasurit/PPG code ALF723, supposedly available between 1955-1960. Some Lechler catalogs I have list the paint as "Visone Scuro" (= "dark") with Lechler code 723-1195, supposedly (first) available in 1958. So, I'd say researching color code AR-723 probably gives the best chance of success. The references to 1955 and 1958 indicate this color may also have been available on some 1900 cars (750/101 Giulietta is much less likely), but that would be conjecture at this point in time.
  • A slightly confusing side issue is that there is/was also a "Beige Visone" AR-110 that supposedly was used 1986-1988 (i.e. probably a different color that was used much later).

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]

Last edited by tubut; 07-31-2019 at 08:04 PM.
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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 08:15 PM
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My 1964 2600 Sprint was originally Visone. However, it has been repainted Alfa Russo. I am very curious as to what the paint color really was as Tubut indicates that is was limited to the 2600 Sprint. Is there anyone who can provide a visual reference for KF18011 or AR-273 or Ditsler mixture code 22490?
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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Bora1978 View Post
My 1964 2600 Sprint was originally Visone. However, it has been repainted Alfa Russo. I am very curious as to what the paint color really was as Tubut indicates that is was limited to the 2600 Sprint. Is there anyone who can provide a visual reference for KF18011 or AR-273 or Ditsler mixture code 22490?
Typos aside, I don't think you'll find any reliable information. In addition to this link I posted above, this car may show a reasonable approximation of what "Visone" might look like -- if you trust both that (a) the camera that the pictures were taken with, and (b) the screen you're looking at, recorded and reproduce the color with any degree of accuracy.

As I learned from being allowed to look over the shoulders of the guys at RX Autoworks, in context of trying to figure out the color for this car, color scanners cannot be trusted either.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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