2600, help with hose location - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 09:10 AM Thread Starter
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2600, help with hose location

I put my fresh engine in my 65 spider this weekend. I got the car with the engine out and apart, so I don't have any idea where some of the parts go.
It came with Weber's conversion. Where do I get vacuum for the brake booster?
There is a water tube on the bottom of the intake manifold center. I looked in the parts manual and work shop manual. I found one reference that says heater but I don't see where it connects.

Thanks JP
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 09:25 AM
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Dang. I missed the fun.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legrasj View Post
I put my fresh engine in my 65 spider this weekend. I got the car with the engine out and apart, so I don't have any idea where some of the parts go.
It came with Weber's conversion. Where do I get vacuum for the brake booster?
There is a water tube on the bottom of the intake manifold center. I looked in the parts manual and work shop manual. I found one reference that says heater but I don't see where it connects.

Thanks JP
There are 2 types of intake manifold that differ in how the vacuum circuit connects (the older one using hoses to connect the intake runners, the later ones having passages cast in the manifold, see this thread). There are two more versions, one used on the 2600 SZ (using a hose nipple with a built-in check valve, and one for the 2600 OSI (with an additional vacuum attachment, presumably for an A/C device). Several Weber conversions ignore the vacuum passages altogether, others take the vacuum only off of cyl 4 and 5.

The heater hoses connect at the end of the intake manifold (presumably the input to the heater valve), visible in the pictures at the beginning of the thread linked above, and near the water pump. An overview of the hose routing is shown in TSB 1.06.002 attached below.

Name:  1.06.002.jpg
Views: 47
Size:  100.5 KB

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]

Last edited by tubut; 07-09-2019 at 04:56 PM.
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 03:18 PM
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Or as pic between no 4 and 5 intakes?
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-09-2019, 04:57 PM
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Or as pic between no 4 and 5 intakes?
Yup, I corrected my post.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 09:13 AM Thread Starter
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2600 hose location

OK, so last night I gave my intake manifold a thorough inspection. There are no holes from the intake runners to the tube under the manifold. It is not and never was Siamese. When I pulled off the rubber plug on the tube underneath that the engine builder put on, probably when it was dynoed, there was a bit of water. I thought it was a heater water duct. I'm thinking I'll drill and tap the plastic adapters to get vacuum.
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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Legrasj View Post
It is not and never was Siamese.
The siamesing was part of the casting, not of an operation during the manufacturing process. It's hard to tell from the pictures (nice job using a mirror!), but the surfaces of the intake runners give me the impression that they have been sleeved (tubes inserted).

Drilling the plastic adapters may be an option, but I suggest you first investigate how you would attach hose barbs -- e.g., if you have enough meat in the plastic to use even a 1/8" NPT hose barb, and then enough clearance (to the next adapter) for attaching a hose.

BTW, I wonder how these plastic adapters were attached to the manifold. There doesn't seem to be space to get a socket or spanner over the nuts. Maybe the intake manifold was drilled through and bolts were used from the back instead of the original studs from the front? This would mean the intake manifold would have to come off for servicing the plastic adapters (which then also poses the question of how the plastic adapters were sealed towards the manifold, and whether or not such drill holes for bolts (or sleeves) affected any of the water passages -- which then may explain the water you found). If you can track down who made the conversion, it may be worthwhile talking to them.

All that being said, there are a number of 2600s that run without a brake booster (mostly because failed brake boosters have been bypassed). I was told it takes more force (but not an excessive amount) on the brake pedal. So, that may be an option to consider as well.

Last but not least, one can buy small 12V DC vacuum pumps on eBay for about $20-25 (see search here) that maybe worth a try. If they produce sufficient vacuum quick enough, I have a hunch they could easily be hidden near the vacuum container in the engine compartment, and that would save you all the grief of dealing with the intake manifold and/or plastic adapters.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 12:14 PM
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Interesting pictures.

I have the same question than Ruedi regarding the design of the tubes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legrasj View Post
I'm thinking I'll drill and tap the plastic adapters to get vacuum.
I think that the casting holes are in front of the aluminum tubes, not in front of the plastic adapters.

The solution of the electrical vacuum pomp is a very good idea. The issue of the needed rate of flow should be define previously.
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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 03:00 PM
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I feel like I am on a different planet here and not getting the question . The vacuum take off for the brake booster which I showed circled in red is clearly visible between 4 and 5 intake in your photo 2 and 3 on post 6. This manifold clearly started life as a siamised Solex manifold. If there is no route to it for vacuum this could be as suggested because the intake has been de-siamised by adding sleeves . I have an original Weber manifold with the vacuum take-off at a different point, but no idea which intake it goes to . You may just have to redrrill the vacuum port.
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 03:08 PM
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Std Solex manifold . If you take the carb mounts off you should see the sleeves underneath . I agree you have two options try and drill a hole in the sleeve to open up the old vacuum route which wil be difficult or as you suggest drill and tap the carb mount for vacuum. there is an outside chance the sleeves can be removed and drilled , but this would need the manifold off the engine. I have never understood why but it looks like the vacuum is taken from ports 4 and 5
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Last edited by Redmerlin; 07-10-2019 at 03:16 PM.
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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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2600 hose location

Thanks for all the info. You are correct that the ports were sleeved. I pulled off the insulator/adapter and could clearly see the edge of the sleeve. I agree that when it was machined to accept the sleeve they got into the water jacket explaining the water cumming out of the vacuum tube. My solution is I removed the vacuum tube and plugged it. I drilled and taped one of the insulators/adapter for a hose nipple. Hopefully there will be enough vacuum from one port.
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-12-2019, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
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2600 hose location

Thanks again for all the help. Here's a close up shot of my finished installation. Notice the Thackery "Spring" Washers on the Weber's. I have never seen these before.
Intrepid, the local Ferrari vintage race and restoration shop did the Weber conversion years ago before I got the car, They remember it. I guess they know what they're doing.
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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-12-2019, 10:29 AM
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We’ll talk about Weber mounting, support, Thackeray washers, and air leaks next time we meet.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-12-2019, 11:05 AM
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Nice result, thank you for sharing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legrasj View Post
Notice the Thackery "Spring" Washers on the Weber's. I have never seen these before.
Each time a Werber is installed on a rigid flange you should use "spring" washers. This retains some elasticity in the weber / manifold connection and avoids transmitting all engine vibrations to the carburetors.

Here an other exemple to illustrate :

Name:  IMG_8891.jpg
Views: 25
Size:  317.2 KB

If in certain atmospheric conditions of pressure or temperature you have problems with carburation, do not hesitate (in a quick solution), to drill the Weber's covers.

See this discussion : https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/190...roject-63.html

and here in #915 : https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/190...roject-61.html
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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-12-2019, 12:01 PM
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As much as I admire Serge's work, I disagree that drilling the jet-cover is a sound technical solution.

I also do not like solid mounts for Webers.

I also do no like rubber O-ring with Thackeray washers.

Thinking because the shop if a Ferrari shop they must be mechanical gods may lead to unhappy outcomes.

Fortunately, there are solutions to these things that will work.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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