gearbox oil for NON EP seri 1900 102 106 750 101 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 01:44 PM Thread Starter
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gearbox oil for NON EP seri 1900 102 106 750 101

Hi All,


What todays gearbox oil is the best for our NON EP

seri 1900 102 106 750 101 early 105 gearboxes ?

synthetic or mineral oil ?

with no additive's ( sulpher , phosphor )which will damage the brass/copper parts inside .

GL 4 / 5 ?

to slow synchros for easier shifting across a broad temperature range
Improved copper corrosion protection to prolong synchro life
Contains extreme pressure additives , but lacks friction modifiers to balance slipperiness

redline 75W90 NS

Millers 80W90 GL4
Castrol CASTROL MANUAL EP 80W-90 GL4
Shell dentax 80W90
other brands ???

do someone have experience, info ?


rgds Franco
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 02:13 PM
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The early non-EP boxes spec GL1 Dentax. Dentax 80W90 will work fine (if you can find it.) You can get also 90wt GL1 at Napa Auto Parts, or you can do what I do and use 40wt or 10W40 motor oil.

I am not familiar with the pre-five-speed boxes, but in the non-EP 101-105 five speed transmissions the issue isn't yellow metals, it's that the old-style synchros don't work well with EP oil. If you have a box with the later moly synchros then EP is okay.

If anyone tells you to put Redline 75W90NS GL5 gear oil into one of those transmissions, read this thread by a guy who tried it in his '66 and badly messed up his shifting:

https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/spi...ear-oil-7.html

Tom

1963 Giulia Spider (1750 engine)
1974 GTV
1991 Spider
Former: 1987 Milano Gold
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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 07:50 PM
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Tom,

I had the impression from your linked thread that the fellow with the problem already had some issues, and was trying to improve things by trying a different oil.

I’ve just put in RL-NS into my freshly overhauled 102 box. It’ll be a little while before I drive it. I do know how a new/fresh box ought to behave, so if there’s any hint of a problem, it’ll come out.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-08-2019, 08:58 PM
But Mad North-Northwest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
I had the impression from your linked thread that the fellow with the problem already had some issues, and was trying to improve things by trying a different oil.

I’ve just put in RL-NS into my freshly overhauled 102 box. It’ll be a little while before I drive it. I do know how a new/fresh box ought to behave, so if there’s any hint of a problem, it’ll come out.
No. Read the posts by oldcanuck. He wanted to refresh the gear oil in his non-EP Duetto. He put in Redline 75W90NS and it screwed up the shifting. He swapped back to GL1 and it went back to good.

I don't know about the gearbox in the 102, but if it's the same 5-speed in the 101-105 you are quite probably going to have issues unless the box has upgraded synchros. If the synchros were replaced with the newer moly ones as part of the rebuild you will be fine.

Tom

1963 Giulia Spider (1750 engine)
1974 GTV
1991 Spider
Former: 1987 Milano Gold
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 06:12 AM
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The 102 box was the progenitor of the 101 five speed. It’s all-original, and intended to use Dentax. I’ve actually got Dentax in stock, so if the behavior is less than perfect, I’ll swap back.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 07:50 AM
But Mad North-Northwest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
The 102 box was the progenitor of the 101 five speed. Itís all-original, and intended to use Dentax. Iíve actually got Dentax in stock, so if the behavior is less than perfect, Iíll swap back.
Well, I guess you'll be another test case. I can tell you Redline NS did not work well in my Giulia. Currently running 10W40.

Tom

1963 Giulia Spider (1750 engine)
1974 GTV
1991 Spider
Former: 1987 Milano Gold
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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 08:18 AM
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I’m curious.

I’ve got fresh OE synchros (not repro) in this box. The essence of the problem with the typical EP oil is, as has been noted, the friction required for the synchros to work.

The “EP” characteristic is primarily a benefit in hypoid differentials where there is substantial shearing of the oil film. There’s less demand in the trans, but the EP should reduce gear-face wear. If it will work with fresh synchros, it may also slow the synchro wear. I won’t be around to learn the long term outcome, but I’ll be able to report on the intitial behavior.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gubi View Post
Well, I guess you'll be another test case. I can tell you Redline NS did not work well in my Giulia. Currently running 10W40.
10W40 would be engine oil, not gearbox oil.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubut View Post
10W40 would be engine oil, not gearbox oil.
Yep. 10W40 engine oil is similar in viscosity to an 80W90 multigrade gear oil, doesn't have the EP additives that cause shifting problems in the early boxes, and is easier to find than GL1.

Got the idea from Papajam who used straight 40wt in all the Alfa gearboxes he worked on. It's worked well for me in the Giulia, I stick to GL5 gear oil in the '91 Spider.

https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/spi...ml#post1036007

Your mileage may vary, but it works for me.

Tom

1963 Giulia Spider (1750 engine)
1974 GTV
1991 Spider
Former: 1987 Milano Gold
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 11:02 AM
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Hi, got a question.
Is there a reason not to use Gl-1 non-EP, that is the gearbox oil specified for our cars?
Are there maybe many reports from way back where drivers were complaining about synchro or gear wear after using Gl-1.
It seems like some are looking for a ‘better’ or ‘newer’ oil, with a bunch of additives that apparently will cause extra wear.
I don’t see the point in that unless it is known to someone that the Gl-1 non EP never was a good choice.
Mike
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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 01:20 PM
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I am going to try the Millers Classic Differential Oil EP90 GL5 from what I am reading the Sulphur is bonded and does not react with "yellow metals.

Feedback?

The older I get.. the faster I was....
Tom
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 01:30 PM
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Again, this is not a yellow metal issue. It is a friction issue: the EP/GL5 oils are too slick for the old-style synchronizers to work. The Alfa 5-speed doesn't have any yellow metal concerns.

The correct Millers gear oil for a non-EP Alfa transmission would be Millers Green Gear Oil 90, GL1. I haven't tried it.

Tom

1963 Giulia Spider (1750 engine)
1974 GTV
1991 Spider
Former: 1987 Milano Gold
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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 01:47 PM
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@Gubi,
I am not being difficult ...what about the bushings?

The older I get.. the faster I was....
Tom
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 02:02 PM
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On my recently revived from a long slumber (off road since 1974) 1960 Spider with 47K original miles, I used Valvoline MTL. Its synthetic and made for manual transmissions. If I was going Redline or Lucas or whatever, I would use their MTL (manual transmission lubricant) vs their gear oil.
As part of the "get the car back on the road" I disassembled the gearbox and all looked very well. Now, I have limited miles, but shifting both up and down thru the range has been very smooth. Frankly I threw the Valvoline in there because the local speed shop that carries Redline MTL was closed on the Sunday I wanted to drive the car for the first time so I thought "what the heck". Its working really well, no complaints, so I'm just going to keep it in there..
So I wonder if some of the problems are from folks using a gear oil in lieu of the same brand's MTL. Sort of getting lost in the weeds over viscosity vs intended use.
As to Sulphur - bonded or not I would not use that anywhere near brass - like synchro's or brass bushings.

Just my 2 cents.
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 04-09-2019, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Frasca View Post
@Gubi,
I am not being difficult ...what about the bushings?
I mean, Alfa spec'd GL1 and designed the box for it. So I'd assume they'd be fine. Unlike the ring & pinion gears I don't think the loads in the gearbox are crazy high, but Mongo dunno.

The problem with EP is then the old-style synchros don't work right and you can't shift properly and you wear your dog gear teeth. If you upgrade your synchros to moly you can use whatever you want.

Tom

1963 Giulia Spider (1750 engine)
1974 GTV
1991 Spider
Former: 1987 Milano Gold
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