Carello headlight restoration - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #31 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2018, 04:29 AM Thread Starter
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Great job Don, I knew this could be done with some application. I intend on do the same with my RHD Carellos for my Sprint GT, although I think I will use a white or cream colour silicone if I can find one able to handle exterior elements.
Tim
You can get silicone in lots of colors. I just happened to have gray and black, and didnít want black.

Itís hidden by the retaining ring and trim ring in any case, and isnít in an area where it impact reflectivity.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #32 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2018, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by ballough510 View Post
The plot certainly thickens.... Ruedi my instinct tells me the low wattage H4 bulbs would not over load the switch gear or circuit,
however the directional light beam original design may just "scatter". I am inclined to use my later AutoPal lamps and put the vintage Carrello's in a box with the spares for my car. Maybe Paul, could chime in on his findings. The LED seems like another useful approach.
Ric
H4's are really fossils in the US.. hard to believe I had trouble finding them .. My Euro as delivered my '72 had Carellos and H4's --60/55W as spec'ed.. The old incandescent were 45/40W No great shakes.on the earlier cars.. OKP has the correct H4 bulb that are clipped in with no ears. I wouldn't trust any sealant that can't take the heat..There is a reason the light manufacturers use what they use. hard as a rock. I hate that sound of broken glass it when the precious lens falls on the ground and goes boom.

For my money, Id buy NOS Carellos for like $300 that fit your buckets.. Then send them and the old set to an expert to swap out the lenses.. DONE.. I'd think no more than $500 total. saves alot of hand wringing.

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post #33 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2018, 09:14 AM
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post #34 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2018, 10:01 AM Thread Starter
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H4's are really fossils in the US.. hard to believe I had trouble finding them .. My Euro as delivered my '72 had Carellos and H4's --60/55W as spec'ed.. The old incandescent were 45/40W No great shakes.on the earlier cars.. OKP has the correct H4 bulb that are clipped in with no ears. I wouldn't trust any sealant that can't take the heat..There is a reason the light manufacturers use what they use. hard as a rock. I hate that sound of broken glass it when the precious lens falls on the ground and goes boom.

For my money, Id buy NOS Carellos for like $300 that fit your buckets.. Then send them and the old set to an expert to swap out the lenses.. DONE.. I'd think no more than $500 total. saves alot of hand wringing.

The history of sealants and glues has enjoyed as much development as anything. In my company, we used a high-temp epoxy good to over 350F. One of the constituent elements had to be kept refrigerated, and was registered with the FDA as a Class 1 restricted substance!

The Carellos I just dismantled definitely did not use silicone. The dry, cracked white stuff was serving as just a sealant (and had long failed in that job), relying on the crimp ring to retain the glass.

The Hellas had no crimp ring, and it was definitely a rubbery, gray silicone acting as both sealant and retaining glue. I used Ultra Gray, which has plenty of temperature headroom. If one were to calculate the gripping force, using the area of glue being used, Iím certain the glass would break long before the silicone failed to hold it in place.

Itís all a bit arbitrary. It gives me a chuckle to have a car driving around with its original lenses. This car is attempting to meet most of those kinds of standards. My driver, 00072, has any number of modern improvements that favor the driving experience over the concours check list.

Right tool for each mission.
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Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #35 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2018, 10:43 AM
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Great job, Don!

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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post #36 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2018, 03:36 PM Thread Starter
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I've since spotted a couple of cheaper alternatives for H4 Donor bucket lamps. On the order of $45/pr. I looked as closely as the screen would allow, and am glad I didn't choose that option. The one I looked at most closely was made in India, and the bucket had a far less secure looking attachment surface. For another $30/pr, I'm happy I used a known-good-quality vendor like Hella.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #37 of 43 (permalink) Old 07-31-2018, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
My driver, 00072, has any number of modern improvements that favor the driving experience over the concours check list.
In this case, I recommend to connect electrical relays near the lighthouse to guarantee the greatest luniness.
These relays would be powered directly by the battery (current taken from the starter) and controlled by the original power supply wires.

For information and for these that haven't the original Carello lens, OKP sell a pair of reproduction (not so bad) :

Retro Rosso

On my car :

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post #38 of 43 (permalink) Old 08-01-2018, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
I've since spotted a couple of cheaper alternatives for H4 Donor bucket lamps. On the order of $45/pr. I looked as closely as the screen would allow, and am glad I didn't choose that option. The one I looked at most closely was made in India, and the bucket had a far less secure looking attachment surface. For another $30/pr, I'm happy I used a known-good-quality vendor like Hella.
FYI, searching for the small ones one my '57 Sprint 10 years ago.. I needed only a retainer and AFRA sold me the WHOLE unit... The reflector was frosted .. a real piece of schitt. Needless to say my posterior was frosted. I had to return the whole unit and wait weeks for a refund and ate the freight.. none of it was remotely close to originally as designed. It looked like something that would come from a tent in Mongolia.
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post #39 of 43 (permalink) Old 08-01-2018, 05:54 AM
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Hi Don and All,
What I found and what I think about the 00.506.700

First of all Iím glad you safed the glasses on your car.
The design of these old Carello light glasses is in my opinion so nice, they were used on a large range of italian cars at that time, from the little Fiat 600 jewel (the series with the big lights), over our beautiful Alfaís to the mighty Lanciaís and Morettiís . Even some little italian trucks had them. Nowadays this design risks to fade away as there are few of them remaining.
So I think it is the right thing to do to re-use and 'show' these glasses. Original lights gives the car that extra class, 'found normal' almost 'unnoticed' for showroom cars but really amazing when found on cars that are still on the road. For having an idea of that 'classy light' see the well known factory picture of the Giulietta sprints 101 using them. Excuse me for the poor quality as I have no scan device.
There were actually two types of this lights. The difference was the use of the inner little reflector.
I hope the name is about correct in english. (Ďoscuratoreí in italian, Ďrecuperateurí in french)
I noticed this difference between the 2000 spiders from PS70 and Dirk Spunkt.
For the european alfa 2000 102 series, Carello proposed officially the 00.506.700 without that reflector in their catalog.
Nevertheless, both types were offered by Carello as interchangeable light units for many cars with the american sealed-beam lights. ( not only Alfa by the way).
I conclude that both types can be said as being correct for the US verion. (this is my opinion of course)
I have no idea why there were two types in the first place as both types were used for lights that combine head and dim lights. Correct me please if Iím wrong in this matter.
I also found in the catalog that there were units for LHD and for RHD cars .
Lights with 00.506.700 on the glass were for cars driving on the right side of the road and glasses with 08.500.700 were for cars driving on the left side of the road.
This all is my opinion and details were found in the Carello catalog ( 1960).
Happy to hear and learn from other persons having other ideas in this.

Thierry
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post #40 of 43 (permalink) Old 08-01-2018, 08:05 AM Thread Starter
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Thierry,

Thank you for your insights. It’s fun to have a glimpse into the past, and your note on RHD vs LHD will be useful. I tested the pattern of my lights last night, and agree that they have a slight upward slant on the right side, as appropriate for Right-side-rule cars.

As far as being suitable for US cars in that era.... for a very long time only sealed beams were legal in the US. This was considered a technological advance over early-design lamps with replaceable bulbs. However, this law also prohibited the installation of modern lamps that were superior in all regards. I was in the imported auto parts business at that time, and sold a steady stream of Cibie headlamps, all marked “for off-road use only” on the box. Of course, this was not much impediment to their actual use. The annual safety inspection generally looked only for correct aiming and output, both of which were easily met by the modern H4 lights.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #41 of 43 (permalink) Old 08-09-2018, 06:02 PM
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FYI, at the vendor booth of ReOriginals at the AROC Convention "Sempreverde 2018", they showed repro lamps. So, they have them (see here), if someone needs them.

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-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]

Last edited by tubut; 08-09-2018 at 06:08 PM.
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post #42 of 43 (permalink) Old 08-09-2018, 09:03 PM Thread Starter
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$397 EACH. Impressive. But, if that’s where you wanna go.

It’s hard to make out in the pictures, but these appear to be glued together rather than use acrimp ring.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #43 of 43 (permalink) Old 08-10-2018, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
$397 EACH. Impressive. But, if thatís where you wanna go.

Itís hard to make out in the pictures, but these appear to be glued together rather than use acrimp ring.
I went back, checked, and had a conversation with Matt Jones about these headlights.

He thought it was a good question to ask about crimping vs. glued. Matt advised these lights are glued, new manufacture. He said that if he could find headlights with crimped rings, they would be 50-60 years old, and may start to have corrosion problems even if they are NOS (with the corrosion starting as Spider webs from the back of the reflector, even if it hasn't reached the reflective coating yet). He mentioned that resilvering the reflectors would cost about $480, plus labor for removal of the lens (if it can be removed without breaking it) and reassembly.

If somebody has cracked or pitted glass (or no glass or headlights at all), and/or wants the correct lens pattern, at least now we know that repros are available and where to find them.

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-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]

Last edited by tubut; 08-10-2018 at 12:48 PM.
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