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post #121 of 946 (permalink) Old 01-19-2018, 08:26 AM Thread Starter
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Wait a moment...

Is your bracket three pieces? If so, with the rubber piece in the middle, then it could be the item Tubut has described. I cannot tell from your picture the exact nature of what you are holding. It appears, on my computer, to be all one piece.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #122 of 946 (permalink) Old 01-19-2018, 09:49 AM Thread Starter
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Back to brakes

Here's the backside of the front brakes, the inside of the rear backing plate showing the locating pins that accept the hex-thingie pin, and my wheel cylinders, partly dismantled.

My experience with 102 wheel cylinders is that they are usually so corroded that they cannot be dismantled without destruction. So far, I've gotten all of the front and rear cylinders dismantled, except for one piston of one rear cylinder. I've got it soaking with PB blaster, and whatever else might help, and will continue to diddle with it.

The hex thingies will rotate, but they are stiff enough that I don't think they would rotate by themselves. The pin is not offset or eccentric, so rotating seem moot in any case. I studied their assembly, and believe the hex head is to facilitate assembly with the matching half on the backside of the shoe, and not to make further adjustments. As other commentators have noted, perhaps this device and the slotted pin on the backing plate are simply to locate the shoe, or control the retraction. The pictured shoes are front, the pictured backing plate is a rear, but the slotted pins are essentially the same as the front, except for location.

Here also are pictures of my cleaned front pipe and rear axle housing. I've never seen a 102 front pipe without terminal rust before.
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Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #123 of 946 (permalink) Old 01-19-2018, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
The hex thingies will rotate, but they are stiff enough that I don't think they would rotate by themselves. The pin is not offset or eccentric, so rotating seem moot in any case. I studied their assembly, and believe the hex head is to facilitate assembly with the matching half on the backside of the shoe, and not to make further adjustments. As other commentators have noted, perhaps this device and the slotted pin on the backing plate are simply to locate the shoe, or control the retraction.
If I understand the description correctly, the "hex thingies" are what Girling, in their illustrated description of the 102 brake system, labeled as "Steady Post." I would guess that the function of these Steady Posts is to anchor and prevent the brake shoes from rotating with the drum (and thus reducing the load on the brake cylinders) when full brake forces are applied (e.g. when wheels start locking up).

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-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]

Last edited by tubut; 01-19-2018 at 10:28 AM.
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post #124 of 946 (permalink) Old 01-19-2018, 10:21 AM Thread Starter
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I seriously doubt these pins are to stop rotation. They are far too skinny and weak to do that.

On the other hand, each of the two wheel cylinders is held to the backing plate with what appears to be about a 14mm pin, with very tight fit to both the cylinder and backing plate, plus two 8mm bolts through the backing plate and into the wheel cylinders. These would be what keeps things from rotating.

The "steady posts" are far more likely to just provide a locating method, or to restrict the arc of motion of the shoes as they extend and retract.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #125 of 946 (permalink) Old 01-19-2018, 10:34 AM
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Don, That front down pipe is a beauty.I had to make mine out of a 106 pipe.Now I understand they are available.Bob
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post #126 of 946 (permalink) Old 01-19-2018, 10:36 AM
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I think the steady posts align the shoes parallel to the drums. There is a threaded stud and lock nut that bears on a steel pad on the web of the shoe. The smaller drum braked cars have the same item.
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post #127 of 946 (permalink) Old 01-19-2018, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas H View Post
I think the steady posts align the shoes parallel to the drums. There is a threaded stud and lock nut that bears on a steel pad on the web of the shoe. The smaller drum braked cars have the same item.
Yes, some more digging into Girling info led me to the same conclusion. A Rolls Royce workshop manual (see 10 MB PDF here) describes the Steady Post first as being part of (I'm paraphrasing) the "shake-back stops" which are fitted to "prevent the shoes from being shaken away from the drum when the car is moving over rough surfaces" and later instructs "that the lining faces are [supposed to be] at right angles to the hub flange" and "adjustment is made by screwing the steady post in or out as necessary." In this context, it makes sense that a 3-point brake shoe support (at the 2 slave cylinders and the Steady Post) would make a stable system.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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post #128 of 946 (permalink) Old 01-19-2018, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
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The hex thingie cannot be screwed in or out. On both the early and late 102 brake system, there are two threaded studs plus locknut per wheel that stick through the backing plate to adjust the parallelism of the shoe to the drum face.

I suppose the "rattle back" prevention could make sense.

Speaking of which, a little heat got out the remaining piston among all my wheel cylinders. I used a soft hone and scotchbrite and the bores of the two rear cylinders came shiny clean. I'll attack the four front cylinders later.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #129 of 946 (permalink) Old 01-19-2018, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas H View Post
I think the steady posts align the shoes parallel to the drums. There is a threaded stud and lock nut that bears on a steel pad on the web of the shoe. The smaller drum braked cars have the same item.
Chas H is right !
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post #130 of 946 (permalink) Old 01-20-2018, 11:50 AM
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When Girling pistons stuck in brake cylinders

I have used grease guns and the pressure available from that to force pistons to back out of girling pistons. I leave the bleeder in and put a zerk fitting into the location where the brake fluid goes into the cylinder.

And I have finally found the photos of the different front cylinder for the later style Girling self adjusting system. There are two different styles of front cylinders. I have this one because an ear broke off and a new one had to be ordered from AFRA. The black round disk with the large six sided piece on the other side of the brake shoe can be slid by braking force once installed and become as self adjusting by sliding slightly outward almost imperceptably as the linings wear.
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[B]JAY NUXOLL [/B][EMAIL="
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"], seriously Alfa diseased and ancient OLD Two Liter Lover, put together Seattle area's Northwest Alfa Romeo Club in 1965, and still feebly tries to tend a teeny sacred flame to his serpent mistress in the [B]ALFA G'RAJ MAHAL[/B], a home garage temple with more Alfa cars and parts than he dare list because of the disapproval of his shamed and chagrined family. (425) 641-2600.
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post #131 of 946 (permalink) Old 01-20-2018, 12:28 PM Thread Starter
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Jay,

I think you might want to re-think the "self adjusting" nature of this setup. The nut ("six sided thing") is actually tapered so as to limit how far down on the rotating shaft it can be tightened. Once tightened, the shaft will certainly not slide outward. It will only rotate.

There is a sort of thin clock-gear under the "six sided thing" which allows it to hold position once turned, presumably by the mechanic. This takes up the slack in shoe wear. I can divine no method by which this shaft and eccentric will automatically turn itself. There is a flat tang on the outside of the shaft to allow a mechanic to turn it in order to take up shoe wear.

Or, you were talking about the large thingie with the hex head?

I can see no method by which it can be slid at all. It will rotate, but I see no sideways motion indicated. Maybe it's there, but these things are so stiff it's hard to imagine them adjusting themselves.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
post #132 of 946 (permalink) Old 01-21-2018, 11:13 AM
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Exclamation "Esse ad posse valet ellatio!"

"If if has happened, then to assert that it can happen is a valid argument" (as the heading is translated). Don, the black disk with the hole on the brake shoe (only for the "self adjusting ones" with the six sided other side, is hard to move, but it does move. As the photo I provided of the front cylinder (one sided, notice) shows, on those the eccentric adjustor for length of fit is on the end of the cylinder. On the other more common set up the large hole in the end where that eccentric is fitted there is instead merely a larger diameter bolt to hold the cylinder to the backing plate and any adjustment on the shoes is done by the eccentric somewhere in the middle between the ends of the shoes which push on the inside of the shoes.

One can use the later shoes on the early style backing plates with the early style cylinders (because nothing would have to fit over the studs or slotted pegs), but not vice versa. On the latter style self adjusting brakes the hole in the black disk on the inside of the shoe must first over the slotted peg sticking out of the backing plate. As the brakes are is used the force of the fluid from the pedals to the cylinders pushs also against the shoes (obviously, because that is how the lining pushes against the drum), but as the shoes wear down little by little the black disks also move on the shoes. That is why it seems so hard to get these shoes on the first time. To do that requires forcing that disk to slide enough to allow the shoe to come more to the center so the drum can be placed over it. But then over the course of use applying the brakes hard will push the shoes out against the drum a bit further and that causes the black disk to slide to allow it, And as the linings wear the shoe moves out ever so slightly.

Admittedly the rear brakes have a single cylinder pushing both ways. The holes of the black disks of the shoes on the newer style must still be fitted over the slotted pegs sticking out from the backing plates. it is true the adjustment for LENGTH fitting of the shoes is handled by the sane bottom square adjustor on both regular and self adjusting, but on the self adjusting newer style with the pegs on the backing plates the black disks have to be moved to fit those pieces sticking out from the backing plates first. So, once again I assure you that I argue from somethng I can vouch as actually happening to what is supposed to happen (Thus the comment from ancient Aristotelian Logic as translated to Latin by medieval scholars). I tell you the hardest part -- the part that seems most frustrating -- for the first fitting of self adjusting Girling brakes is that the black disk hole MUST fit onto those stubs on the backing plate. However, if the backing plate does not have those stubs (e.g. someone using the new style shoes in the regular or customary system) then the black disks can be disregarded. But then the brakes will need to be hand adjusted.

My Sprint has the new style. I have gone through this frustrating learning experience first hand to understand how to put the newer system together and how it works. I suspect I might still have a full set of both kinds of brakes including different styles of shoes and backing plates. Those you show by pictures in this thread are the newer self adjusting kind. Perhaps I may have to lay the pieces of the other set out on the floor to show photos to everyone? Or perhaps both types?

[B]JAY NUXOLL [/B][EMAIL="
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"], seriously Alfa diseased and ancient OLD Two Liter Lover, put together Seattle area's Northwest Alfa Romeo Club in 1965, and still feebly tries to tend a teeny sacred flame to his serpent mistress in the [B]ALFA G'RAJ MAHAL[/B], a home garage temple with more Alfa cars and parts than he dare list because of the disapproval of his shamed and chagrined family. (425) 641-2600.
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post #133 of 946 (permalink) Old 01-21-2018, 07:09 PM Thread Starter
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Jay,

Your explanation sort of makes sense, in a rambling obtuse sort of way. I'll study it. How does one re-set the Hex-thingie when installing fresh friction material? How does it maintain its resistance to movement rather than wear and become floppy?

But on to today's report.

I managed to slowly bludgeon out one of the sway bar link bushings when I remembered that 10 years ago I had special holders and rams made for 102 bushing installation and removal. The next three took seconds.

Convertible top frame dismantled and in the queue for the powder coater. I don't recall if the one from the 59 had permanent rivets in many of the joints like this one, or was all bolt-and-nut assembly. I'll go look later.

Joe came down and helped get the rotisserie well under way. We got the majority of the "ladder" complete and tacked. Next is to weld in a few X-braces in crucial spots, then build the end pieces. 80% done and only 80% yet to go.

I got all six of the brake wheel cylinders cleaned up and ready for reassembly. I thought I had kits in stock, but nope, so they've been ordered. I'm pleased that all of them came apart revealing clean, unblemished bores and pistons.

Long day's work, and quite a mess from grinding and metal fab all over the floor. That'll get cleaned later. I'll sleep well tonight.
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Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...

Last edited by DPeterson3; 01-22-2018 at 06:21 AM.
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post #134 of 946 (permalink) Old 01-22-2018, 02:43 PM
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Don,

Did you see that ? :

http://www.afra.it/alfaromeo-epoca-4...o=102045601300
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post #135 of 946 (permalink) Old 01-22-2018, 04:38 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PS70 View Post
No, I didn't. Thank you!!!!

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is online now  
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