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post #916 of 1042 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
Spun the #4 rod bearing.

I can still clearly see where the machine shop removed the galley plugs and replaced them after rodding.

Although I drove the engine just a few miles, I was noticing the oil pressure being lower than I like, although the temps were right in the middle.
Aw, that sucks! Could the bearing have had too much play (and hence producing not enough oil pressure in that specific bearing) rather than the galley not delivering enough oil?

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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post #917 of 1042 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 07:17 PM Thread Starter
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At this point, I don’t know why it failed. I measure EVERYTHING when I build an engine, including plastigauge to check for clearances. It’s clear the bearing was spinning in the rod, which can happen if there’s too little lubricant.

I’ll rebuild the engine later. Something will turn up during the teardown and checks.

I am a little concerned about bearing quality. They were sort of hand-wrapped when I got them from OKP. No box, no name.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #918 of 1042 (permalink) Old 07-16-2019, 09:44 PM
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Ouch
Even the dog seems compassionate.
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post #919 of 1042 (permalink) Old 07-17-2019, 06:18 PM
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I once got a new set of rod bearings manufactured with NO locating tang. I caught it before assembly. I always thought that it could have spun in the housing bore had I not caught it.
RML
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post #920 of 1042 (permalink) Old 07-17-2019, 07:07 PM Thread Starter
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The spun bearings at first appeared to have no tangs. However, they are there, just smoothed flat from spinning.

There was plenty of oil on the bearing faces when removed.

I’m taking my mind off of the failure for now, and shifting to backup motor. Maybe get it in and going within two days.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #921 of 1042 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 11:31 AM Thread Starter
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Hmmm. The bottom end is entirely toast.

All of the main bearings and some of the rod bearings are done. It's like no oil circulation, although a couple of the rod bearings look OK.

Plenty of oil running around inside the case, and the pistons and cylinders look fine. I'd say the most likely culprit is either plugged block galleys or crank galleys. As noted, I can see the evidence of removed and replaced crank plugs, but that doesn't prove the shop did a good job of cleaning things out. I cleaned out the block galleys. Oil pump insides look very good.

I've got the engine stripped, and will spend this afternoon readying the second engine for installation. Fingers crossed there's not something tragically wrong in it. I don't think of myself as a gomer when it comes to building engines.

News when it arrives....

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #922 of 1042 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
I'd say the most likely culprit is either plugged block galleys or crank galleys.
...or maybe a plug that fell out, which seems to happen quite a bit in alloy blocks -- and the reason why many racers replace them with worm screws when they do an engine.

A friend of mine had 3 bearing failures on a rebuilt 6C 2500 engine until he (and his mechanics) realized that the engine had an almost identical 6C 2300 crankshaft -- same dimensions but different internal oil feed. The crankshaft must have been changed during previous ownership. I hope you won't have to deal with any non-obvious 1900 to 102 issues from switching parts in your engine's history.

-Ruedi
[SIZE="1"]'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, the car in my avatar, sold as resto project to Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).[/SIZE]
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post #923 of 1042 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 01:09 PM
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Don - sorry about the hiccup, I'd hoped it was something simple

Any chance that your machine shop hammered in a new aluminium plug deep enough to restrict or block the oil flow through the crank when they rodded the crank out ??

If they made their own plugs did they perhaps make them too long ?

Aye
Greig

Some 750's
Some 101's
Some 105's
Some others
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post #924 of 1042 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 01:48 PM Thread Starter
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I’ll be looking into these suggestions, and more. It’s as though the crank and bearings weren’t getting nearly enough oil. I’ll start at the suction snorkel and look at every step.

I had good pressure upon start up, but lower as it warmed. That’s usually a sign of too-big clearances. But?.....????

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #925 of 1042 (permalink) Old 07-18-2019, 08:20 PM Thread Starter
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Forensic mechanics. Supposedly, the government thinks I'm skilled at this enough to give me a license to inspect and approve such things.

The head was getting what appears to be plenty of oil. No problems there.
The oil pump looks perfect.
The pressure release valve appears fine, moves, and is unobstructed.
All of the main bearings and three of the rod bearings show distress and exposed copper, going from worst to best from back to front.
The crank has threaded plugs in the crank galley access holes, showing that the shop at least did what I told them to do. Did they block the internal passages? They ground flat the ends of the plugs, meaning I'll have to go old-school to get them out.
So..... Either the main oil galley down the side of the block is obstructed, more at the rear than the front, or the crank is internally obstructed, more at the rear than at the front.

I have four, new head gaskets in stock. All are for the 2300 with its larger bore, so although they might work, I've ordered the correct bore size from CA to arrive early next week. Suprisingly, they now list an Elring for the old 2000. Whoopee. $161. Yikes.

It's amazing how much stuff is now on the market for the 102. Since there are probably 150 left in either restored or restorable condition, and at least half will already be completed, that's a lot of investment for a short-term, and non-continuing return. Color me appreciative.

Pending arrival of the correct head gasket, I expect Tuesday or Thursday to be back on the road.

Did the shop similarly screw up the crank galley plugs on the second engine?

Stay tuned.......

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #926 of 1042 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
Forensic mechanics. Supposedly, the government thinks I'm skilled at this enough to give me a license to inspect and approve such things.

The head was getting what appears to be plenty of oil. No problems there.
The oil pump looks perfect.
The pressure release valve appears fine, moves, and is unobstructed.
All of the main bearings and three of the rod bearings show distress and exposed copper, going from worst to best from back to front.
The crank has threaded plugs in the crank galley access holes, showing that the shop at least did what I told them to do. Did they block the internal passages? They ground flat the ends of the plugs, meaning I'll have to go old-school to get them out.
So..... Either the main oil galley down the side of the block is obstructed, more at the rear than the front, or the crank is internally obstructed, more at the rear than at the front.

I have four, new head gaskets in stock. All are for the 2300 with its larger bore, so although they might work, I've ordered the correct bore size from CA to arrive early next week. Suprisingly, they now list an Elring for the old 2000. Whoopee. $161. Yikes.

It's amazing how much stuff is now on the market for the 102. Since there are probably 150 left in either restored or restorable condition, and at least half will already be completed, that's a lot of investment for a short-term, and non-continuing return. Color me appreciative.

Pending arrival of the correct head gasket, I expect Tuesday or Thursday to be back on the road.

Did the shop similarly screw up the crank galley plugs on the second engine?

Stay tuned.......
Of course the did. They don't know how the crank oils. Be carefull.
RML
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post #927 of 1042 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 06:57 AM
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Don I'd second that, if the same shop did both cranks, then I'd pay particular attention to diagnosing the cause of the first failure, if you find a problem in crank A, then you can reasonably expect to find the same problem in crank B.

Aye
Greig

Some 750's
Some 101's
Some 105's
Some others
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post #928 of 1042 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 08:14 AM Thread Starter
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You both have described why I woke up at 3:30 this morning, and laid awake for the remainder.

Step one will be to try and pull some plugs on crank A.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #929 of 1042 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 10:03 AM Thread Starter
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It occurred to me during my morning dog-walk that the problem is probably not the galley plugs in the crank.

The main bearings were, if anything, in worse shape than the rod bearings. The oil feed to the mains is via the case galley and ports onto the back side of the case-side main bearing shells. If the only problem was the galley plugs, the main bearings would have still been receiving oil. They appear to have been run dry and hot. So, the oil feed problem is somewhere upstream.

The pump looks very good, and would produce high pressure upon startup and running, until things got warm. Then, the pressure would gradually drop to 1/4 span. The oil filter is before the pressure gauge outlet, so we are led to believe that there was pressure and flow up to that point. The pressure outlet is in the main-feed galley along the side of the block. When I stuck a thin rod through the pressure gauge outlet, I could insert it all the way to the hole feeding the center main bearing, with no obstruction. Why, then, would even the center main show distress?

Shortly, I'll air-pressure test Crank A, and confirm there is flow from the main journal transfer holes out to the rod journal holes.

Gotta be a secret in there somewhere.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
DPeterson3 is offline  
post #930 of 1042 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 11:35 AM
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Don
It looks like it oil's 1-3-5 mains from the pump, then goes through 1 con-rod to do #2 main and 3 con-rod to get to #4 main.
From what I can see. If the crank is plugged with trash it will still oil the rest of the engine. It will starve the
#1 rod the #2 Main and the #3 rod and the #4 Main. You know all this I know, just feel bad when this shiz happens.
Ric
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