What Alfa 1900 Sport coupe is this? - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-22-2014, 09:32 PM Thread Starter
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What Alfa 1900 Sport coupe is this?

Not much info was included in the placard. Anyone know who designed this one? And is "prototype" an accurate description or is it just one of many of the one-offs created by coachbuilders in that era? Thanks!
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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-23-2014, 07:54 AM
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It's not a prototype, it's a recreation built in the 1980s on a 1900 platform.

Nothing looking like that existed in period.

Has been for sale sevral times, including at Luzzago in Italy a few years ago.

See this thread, for instance.
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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-23-2014, 09:31 AM Thread Starter
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Wow . . . so you're saying, in some respect, that the owner is trying to pull a fast one?
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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-23-2014, 10:36 AM
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pro·to·type noun \ˈprō-tə-ˌtīp\
: an original or first model of something from which other forms are copied or developed

: someone or something that has the typical qualities of a particular group, kind, etc.

: a first or early example that is used as a model for what comes later



In this sense, a "prototype" can be a one-off that has the typical qualities of a group. I see no fraud in use of the term. A prudent buyer will determine what the are really buying. I like the looks of it, actually.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-23-2014, 03:45 PM
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If you want to be generous you could probably call this some kind of prototype, but it's certainly no actual prototype for a 1900 variant. We all know who made the 1900 coupes, and unlike contemporary US cars it wasn't the factory. I'll bet you a tenner genpop car enthusiasts with little or no knowledge of Alfa Romeo (which means most of them) will walk away thinking they've just seen a factory coupé prototype from 1958. They didn't.

It's a very nice looking car though
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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-24-2014, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
pro·to·type noun \ˈprō-tə-ˌtīp\
Sorry, but right from your definitions, we can definitely state that calling this car a "1958 prototype" is at least misleading.

Quote:
: an original or first model of something from which other forms are copied or developed
It is not, since it was built 25 years after the end of production of the 1900. Of course, one can argue that further 1900 based "specials" (notoriously "barchettas") have been built later. They are most of the time plain scams, offered with forged identities.

Quote:
: someone or something that has the typical qualities of a particular group, kind, etc.
It is certainly not since it does not fit anything that existed at the era it is supposed to belong.

Quote:
: a first or early example that is used as a model for what comes later
How can a 1982 car be the first example of a range whose production ended in 1958?


Quote:
In this sense, a "prototype" can be a one-off that has the typical qualities of a group. I see no fraud in use of the term. A prudent buyer will determine what the are really buying. I like the looks of it, actually.
I dissent. Just like the first poster here, 99% of the watchers will go home convinced - wrongly - that they have seen a 1958 Alfa Romeo prototype. They haven't. From a cultural point of view, it's indeed a fraud. Money is not my point here.
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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-24-2014, 04:35 AM
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I dislike people telling others what they should and should not do, as though there is only one set of rules and all must follow them.

I must be among the 1% that is not confused about the car, nor is my opinion of it affected because of his choice of description. It is impossible that any buyer would be fooled. The car most certainly has many qualities of other 1900 one-offs.

Why complain? Do something constructive and positive, not the opposite.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-24-2014, 05:48 AM
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I have no clue , but to me the styling looks a bit "Zagato" like....but I could be wrong...I often am , my wife says...lol

but its a "copy" of a prototype...

1974 Spider (Dellorto carburated)
recent previously: 58 Giulietta, 69 Firebird 400 convertible, 71 TR6, 68 GT6

Last edited by Bjorn S; 06-24-2014 at 05:53 AM.
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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-24-2014, 05:58 AM
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If the interior is nicely done, I'd call it a winner.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-24-2014, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPeterson3 View Post
I dislike people telling others what they should and should not do, as though there is only one set of rules and all must follow them.

I must be among the 1% that is not confused about the car, nor is my opinion of it affected because of his choice of description. It is impossible that any buyer would be fooled. The car most certainly has many qualities of other 1900 one-offs.

Why complain? Do something constructive and positive, not the opposite.
I try again: this car - no matter how much one finds it attractive or not - IS NOT, NOR DOES LOOK LIKE anything Alfa Romeo or any italian coachbuilder has built in period. I find it a cultural fraud to pass it as such. I'm not talking about money or buyer.

If your lack of Alfa/italian coachbuilding culture, or of sensitivity doesn't allow you to understand this, I'm sorry for you.

And I despise the attempt of moral lecture included in your last sentence.

Have a good day.
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post #11 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-24-2014, 10:34 AM
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Have you walked the streets of Italy? especially in the 60s...LOTS of 'one' built cars , by both Fiat and Alfa....I saw many "one offs" in 58 ,64 and 68 when there ...all along the streets...its like prototypes were sold off to the public.
not saying that tis is a prototype, but a copy of one most likely

1974 Spider (Dellorto carburated)
recent previously: 58 Giulietta, 69 Firebird 400 convertible, 71 TR6, 68 GT6
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post #12 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-24-2014, 10:52 AM
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"Moral lecture..."?

Yep. That's about right. Very happy here. Nothing to be sorry for.

Enjoy the day



Quote:
Originally Posted by gtv2000 View Post
I try again: this car - no matter how much one finds it attractive or not - IS NOT, NOR DOES LOOK LIKE anything Alfa Romeo or any italian coachbuilder has built in period. I find it a cultural fraud to pass it as such. I'm not talking about money or buyer.

If your lack of Alfa/italian coachbuilding culture, or of sensitivity doesn't allow you to understand this, I'm sorry for you.

And I despise the attempt of moral lecture included in your last sentence.

Have a good day.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
Oops. Add to the "present" list, 10204 01488, 2000 Touring Roadster project

And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 40 years) Over 55 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #13 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-24-2014, 12:12 PM Thread Starter
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I gotta agree with GTV2000 here.

For a placard, perhaps "prototype" serves its purposes, but it's not an authentic custom-bodied 1958 Alfa, from what's been indicated above.

Thanks for the feedback.
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post #14 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-27-2014, 06:46 PM
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Someone has built a great looking car. Unfortunately the 1900 underpinnings probably don't live up to its exterior. A veritable sheep in wolf's clothing.

1972 Lancia Fulvia 1.6HF Lusso
1958 Giulietta Spider project
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post #15 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-29-2014, 05:40 PM
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There are plenty of "replica" and "tribute" cars, and also plenty of simulacrums of what someone thinks could have been built in the era. While it has a certain attractiveness, I would have to call this car a pastiche, made up of disparate elements of cars designed by different designers at different times.

As for "prototype", I feel the use of the term is at best misleading. If the owner uses the term as shorthand on a club show placard, perhaps there is minimal harm done. That said, there is a general understanding of the term, especially in the automotive world, that is at odds with the reality the car presents. At best, it then becomes cultural misrepresentation.

If the term is used as a sales descriptor, then I think it verges into explicit false representation and fraud.

The second definition that Don proffers also leaves me unconvinced. In no way, shape, or form would I call this an "archtype". It is neither standard nor typical. I end up back at pastiche. A pretty one, maybe, but still, just someones' fantasy...
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