ALFA ROMEO 1900 Corto Gara. - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-26-2014, 12:42 PM Thread Starter
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ALFA ROMEO 1900 Corto Gara.

hello to you all.
ALFA ROMEO 1900 Sprint Corto Gara.
I don't know if there is anybody, that think this a forgotten Alfa Romeo.But to me it has always been something of a puzzle.
And then I came by by this .
Hans Jürgen Döhring in his book Millenove 1900. States there is 8 in steed of 7 Corto Gara. And only 4 with the split front screen.
For me a Corto Gara , all 7 , should have the split front screen, and the trunk without the trunk lid.
Haw does thing correlate.
Hope someone would help me with the resolving.
In the SVZ tread by martinue. there was some info about the Corto Gara.
Ivanhou von the Italian championship in 1953 in a Corto Gara.
Andres comes with some wonderful pictures of
#69 is Camillo Luglio's works corto gara, 15th OA and 10th in class Racing Sports to 2000 and over;
But Luglio had start number 54 ,according to racing sport, in Coppa d'ore Dolemitti.1953
<In the same race was Zalukar number 24 in class , with start number 55, don't know if it was in a >Corto Gara
Zehender participated in MM, 1953, with number 532 in a CortoGara. But according toCarlo on Motor sports, has More given an article , where he states that Zehender participated in a C52 Alfa Romeo.

Hope someone have an interest to participate in a tread to solve the question around the first Alliggeritta.

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post #2 of 46 (permalink) Old 01-28-2014, 04:59 AM Thread Starter
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Results from Mille Miglia 1952.
There was 4 attended Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint Touring
and 3 Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint.
the seven participant correlate to the seven Corto Gara, there should have been produced.

But was the 4 Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint Touring, in reality ,Corto Gara build for MM 1952.

And was they the only Corto Gara, that was build. 4 instead of 7.

Chassis 1027

starting number 441 Tadini/Bonini Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint Coupé Touring 3:48:37.000 5th place in class

There seems no further information after MM 1952.


Chassis 1047

Starting number 1510 Cortese / de Giuseppe Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint Coupé Touring DNF GT2.0
A well known car , that has participated in many events incl. more historic Mille Miglia.
To me it stands a the reference to a Corto Gara.
The small direction / position lights.
The leather strap on the engine hood.
The split windscreens

The short door sites.

The sliding door windows.
The rear side windows, with air vents.
The missing rear trunk lid, with the Monza filler cap.
These is the visual external things.

This car was renoved by Marin Swig. it was original blue. but after restauration. turned out white

This car is well known by Cater Hendricks. he have stated somewhere, that there is differences between the different Corto Gara.
So what identifies a Corto Gara, judged from the unseen parts.??? Is difficult to say.


chassis number 1048

Starting number 449 Fangio/Sala Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint Coupé Touring 14:03:16.000 7th in class
There seems no further information after MM 1952



Starting number 425 Sanesi/Griffini Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint Coupé Touring13:54:48.000 6th in class.
There seems no further information after MM 1952

all these cars have the carrekstic to chassis 1047.
Did starting number 425 carries chassis number 1420 ???? Or is chassis number 1420, with no relevance with Corto Gara.




The final 3 starting. Was they standard Corto Sprints.(CS) ???
Or where they an other version af Corto Gara.????
I have been unable to find chassis refferens to these 3 cars

436 di Stefano / Ercole Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint DNF GT2.0

501 Daetwyler / Lingeri Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint DNF GT2.0

516 Pesci / Garaglia Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint DNF GT2.0

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post #3 of 46 (permalink) Old 02-04-2014, 09:54 AM
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"Corto Gara"

I am not certain that it is correct to place too much importance or emphasis on a term like "Corto Gara"? We might agree to disagree as to how that specific moniker should be applied?

There was, however, an extensive listing of "preparations" that were intended to be carried out on some cars in preparation for the Mille Miglia of 1952. The typewritten pages are titled "PROGRAMMA PREPARAZIONE VETTURE 1900 C.G. PER MILLE MIGLIA ANNO 1952". Some of the same work was almost certainly carried out (at least in part) on a couple of cars that ran almost two months earlier on the Giro di Sicilia. Some of the proposed work undoubtedly came as the result of lessons learned on the Giro di Sicilia.

How much of the "Gara" specification was already in place on the cars prepared for the "Giro" is not clear. One particular non-specific action item calls for the oil system to be revised in some way yet to be determined in order to improve oil cooling. The document specifically mentions a few action items that were called for regarding the TWO cars that raced in Sicily. One group of action items refers to updates to be done to the cars that raced in Sicily so as to make them resemble more closely the latest production from Touring.

A "vettura sperimentale bleu" is referred to at least three times as a car to use as a model for some work. It may be that the blue experimental car was 01021? It seems likely until we acknowledge there are a few other chassis possibilities about which we known nothing.

The oversize fuel tank notes ("95-100 litri") refer to that work being done by Touring for "the first three cars". The implication is that any others would be fitted at Alfa Romeo. I presume that this implies that the two "Giro" cars were converted by Alfa Romeo.

Another action item in reference to the brakes refers to four cars in addition to the Giro di Sicilia cars. This is perhaps the most interesting note (from the standpoint of counting "how many ...?") in that it seems quite precise. It may be that this indicates there were four true "Corto Gara" cars plus the two cars (ex-Tour of Sicily) that were modified to be generally like the Corto Gara in the most important characteristics?

Notwithstanding the attempts to make all the cars appear somewhat standard and homogenous ...
What is clear from examining period photos is that not each car (that some folks like to label similarly as "Corto Gara") was visually the same externally as the others. Some had curved windscreens and some had two flat panes in a shallow "V" configuration. Some had a trunk lid opening and some did not. There are other notable differences from car to car. Once again, it may be most historically honest and correct to think of (and describe) each car as an individual?

I came to know 01047 quite well for a time, first because I raced against it in vintage events during the early 1980's and then because I did some work on it during the late 1980's for Martin Swig. That particular Alfa Romeo 1900 was the most satisfying Alfa 1900 I have driven, far surpassing in many subtle ways the characteristics of two Zagato-bodied cars (01844 and 02060) that Martin also owned and which I also worked on for a time.

It is almost certain that other cars were prepared at times with some characteristics of the specifications called for by the "Corto Gara" preparation sheets for the MM of 1952. Looking primarily at the Giro di Sicilia (9 March) and the Mille Miglia (4 May) , we find:

There was one Alfa Romeo 1900C (at least) on the Giro di Sicilia (GdS) race about which I do not yet know anything but it seems clear that it was not a works car.

AR1900C*01027 raced on the GdS (race #345) and the MM (race #441)
AR1900C*01028 raced on the GdS (race #342) and the MM (race #532)
AR1900C*01029 raced on the MM (race #501)
AR1900C*01047 raced on the MM (race #510)
AR1900C*01048 raced on the MM (race #449)
AR1900C*01050 raced on the MM (race #425)

AR1900C*01054 was probably the car that raced on the MM under race #436 but this is not yet certain. From what I recall seeing of race #436 (whichever car it was) in a photo in the Sorlini archive, I don't think there are any obvious "Corto Gara" features, but who knows what was hidden inside?

I know nothing of the car (race #516) used by Pesci and Gavaglia.

All of the cars listed above raced in the Gran Turismo (up to 2000cc) category.

In the Sport 2000 category, there was one car (race #538) that seems to have exhibited some "Corto Gara" characteristics but this car may well have been prepared outside the factory?

AR1900C*01021 is a car that was seemingly not raced on either the GdS nor MM. It may have had some "Corto Gara" features when raced to a win by Anna Maria Peduzzi on the Coppa delle Dame on 18 May 1952. As noted above, this may be the "experimental blue car" that was used as a model for a few features of the Corto Gara preparation? In fact, it seems quite likely!

I think it is clear that six cars are acknowledged in the document regarding Alfa Romeo's intent from the start of the project. Two were pre-existing cars that had raced on the Giro di Sicilia. It may be that eight cars may have had some combination of "Corto Gara" preparations for the Mille Miglia of 1952? Perhaps all nine of the 1900C cars had some portion of the preparation, regardless of whether the work was done at Alfa Romeo? And then there is 01021 that also perhaps had some similar preparations at roughly the same time? This would make perhaps ten cars that some might wish to lump together generically as "Corto Gara"?

There may well have been some other cars prepared similarly after this time, but can we honestly lump them all together under the moniker "Corto Gara"? Probably not. At the moment, I can say that 01047 was a very special car the last I knew of it. But it perhaps should not be used as the defacto yardstick to measure all others by simply because it is the only example some of us have been lucky to experience?

John
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post #4 of 46 (permalink) Old 02-04-2014, 11:58 AM
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Isn't preparation for an long-distance endurance race using an over-sized fuel tank "95-100 litri" a contradiction in terms with the label "Corto Gara" (which seems to translate to "short track" or "short race")?

-Ruedi
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post #5 of 46 (permalink) Old 02-04-2014, 12:06 PM
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Corto Gara

The term is not mine so I cannot say for certain. I presume "Corto" is for the still-new wheelbase length that became dictated by the "1900C" designation. If the moniker were to be evocative of "short race" then it would perhaps have been known as "Gara Corta"? And, it is my guess that certain other specifications would have been altered as well.
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post #6 of 46 (permalink) Old 02-04-2014, 12:50 PM
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Great explanation, thanks John!

-Ruedi
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post #7 of 46 (permalink) Old 02-05-2014, 11:42 AM
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Would you guys like this thread moved to the 1900 forum?
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post #8 of 46 (permalink) Old 02-05-2014, 03:35 PM
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No objection

I have no objection to moving the thread.

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post #9 of 46 (permalink) Old 02-08-2014, 11:50 AM Thread Starter
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Andrew in my opinion deserves Alfa Romeo Sprint Corto Gara a tread in the Historic forum.

Ruedi.
The Corto stands for the short chassis of the 1900 series, where 1900 Berlina was produced intern at Portello. The Longo for long chassis.
The Corto and Longo, can be regarded as platforms that was offered to Carrozzeria, for producing special Bodies.
The first Bodies on the Corto, was produced by Touring. witch turned out to be the official Coupé in the 1900 series.
Some of these 1900 series Coupees was prepared for GARA, competition or race. Hence the name. CORTO=chassis GARA= race. The short chsssis prepared for race.
The first 7 was ordered by Alfa Romeo to Carrozzeria Touring, prepared for "GARA"
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post #10 of 46 (permalink) Old 02-08-2014, 11:54 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you John for you always educating information.
I do agree, but as I comment to Ruedi. These first preparation on cars for races. was a new experience for the organisation,on a self carriage chassis. And as there was 7 cars ordered by Touring, it is a rather closed numbers of cars. And they stand, at least for me, as the first attempt to make a lightened body or a Alliggeritta, before it became the word.
I would expect that there has been attempt by works and by others afterwords , to make lighted cars.
But for me its the 7 cars, that make the mark of a new era in alfa Romeos Coupees.

I do agree that the GdS car, start number 345, driven by Cortese, in class + 1,5. Is the same car as MM 441 driven by Tadini. Both have the Registration number 187412 MI. Curved windscreen

I am unable to find trace of this either in GdS or MM AR1900C*01028 raced on the GdS (race #342) and the MM (race #532) .

I do have an other GdS Start number 347, in class GT 2.0 driven by Giovanni Rossi / Mario de Giuseppe. haven't been able to find any additional infos
But whey did Cortese and Rossi start in different classes during GdS in 1952

Mille Miglia 1952

17th 441 Tadini / Bonini Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint Coupé Touring
13:48:37.000 5th GT2.0
18th 425 Sanesi / Griffini Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint Coupé Touring
13:54:48.000 6th GT2.0
22nd 449 Fangio / Sala Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint Coupé Touring
14:03:16.000 7th GT2.0
510 Cortese / de Giuseppe Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint Coupé Touring

DNF GT2.0
436 di Stefano / Ercole Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint

DNF GT2.0
501 Daetwyler / Lingeri Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint

DNF GT2.0 chassis 1029 according to John
516 Pesci / Garaglia Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint

DNF GT2.0

These is the participants I can find for the Mille Miglia 1952.
But whey did they start in Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint Coupé Touring
Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint-

Chassis numbers
start 441 chassis 1027 curved winds.
start 425 don't have split winds. Chassis number 1050 according to John
start 440 chassis 1048 split winds.
start 510 chassis 1047. split winds. This one should have been blue before Martin Swig got it


Crespi 1952 1900 SS according to Alpine Trials and Rallies

There is indication that Crespi started in a Works Corto Gara.
But I am unable to find evidence


Zehender did start in 1953 in a Alfa Rromeo #532)

532 Zehender / de Giuseppe Alfa Romeo 1900 C52
7:53:25.000 DNF S2.0

there is some indications that he started in chassis 1047. But i cant find any evidence.


Ivanhoe(Laureati) was tIalien champinon in class GT 2.0 in 1953 Was that in a works Corto Gara??? Sanesi was third.


Coppa d'Oro delle Dolomiti 1953

Luiglio is reporting starting in Dolomitti 1953 in a Corto Gara, one of the 7 works car.
Start Number 54 Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint Driver Camillo Luglio i klassen S+ 1,1. 15 place in classement and 10 place in class.
Picture attasch, start number, on car 69- But the start list shove that he shuld have , start number 54 .
In the same race start number 55 Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint in GT 2.0 Giovanni Zalukar. number 24 in classement

Nr. 69 in the same race was Alfa Romeo 1900 TI - Alfa Romeo GT2.0 : Pietro Laureati (I) DNF
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post #11 of 46 (permalink) Old 02-08-2014, 03:46 PM
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Lots of questions! Few answers.

"2000 touring sp",

I'd hoped that the meaning of my earlier posting would be understood. We can certainly find ways to manipulate the data that we have to make it seem as if only four true "Corto Gara" cars were built ... or perhaps as many as ten(?) ... or even more ... if we wish to stretch our thinking even a little bit. The evidence suggests that there were differences even among the four that were referred to as being built after the Giro di Sicilia. I am willing to believe that there were perhaps three "works" cars on the Giro di Sicilia but the C.G. preparation notes indicate that only two were subject to the Corto Gara preparation as it was described by the document referred to earlier.

Personally, I'd rather describe each car individually rather than lump them all together into an homogenous lump. If you wish to believe that there were seven cars that were of a certain specific common specification, you may certainly do so. But, when you point out the obvious differences between cars you lump together as "Corto Gara", I think you are already challenging that concept.

Why do you say that seven "gara" cars were ordered by Alfa Romeo from Touring?

Let's say there were seven cars ordered. Do we describe the total as being the three cars on the Giro di Sicilia (even if one was perhaps not brought back to the factory for some reason so as to not become subject to the "Corto Gara" level of preparation?) plus the four cars we think we know were built/completed after the Giro di Sicilia? Or, was it 1900C*01021 that was built as part of the batch of seven (one plus two plus four) that you refer to so insistently?

Your comments about the Alfa Romeo squad being inexperienced in racing is simply not true. Yes, they had to adapt the knowledge they already had to cars without separate chassis.

Nor was this Alfa Romeo's first attempt to build lightweight versions of cars that otherwise appeared to be rather "normal". It is true that these cars are perhaps the first effort to do this on a modernized platform that was made largely of parts that were stamped in quantity rather than formed individually. However, the conceptual challenge is the same.

As noted previously, I can identify some of the cars on the 1952 GdS and MM events as follows (now following your form):
#345 (GdS) & #441 (MM) is AR1900C*01027
#342 (GdS) & #532 (MM) is AR1900C*01028

I did not know that the Rossi/De Giuseppe car was race #347 on the GdS and I have not come across any photos or details that allow me to identify it. Nominally, they all raced in a unified "GT-over1500cc" category.

I do not yet know which car Crespi used during 1952. It probably will not be difficult to learn. I just haven't spent any time or effort on doing so.

Zehender used AR1900C*01028 on the MM of 1953 with race #532

"Ivanhoe" has been listed as being a pseudonym for Pietro Laureati but I am not certain this was true in 1953. It seems more likely that "Ivanhoe" (sometimes listed as "Ivanoe") was a pseudonym for Vincenzo Avorio in this time period. I cannot say this with any conviction as I've not yet made this a real study.

Regardless, "Ivanhoe" seems to have been entered in a 1900TI. However, there were some homologation difficulties that moved the 1900TI entries into the "Gran Turismo 2000" category at this event in 1953, so it may well be that "Ivanhoe" was allowed to use a proper "GT" car in place of the entered "1900TI"? In any case, if the photo of #69 was taken on the 1953 Coppa d'Oro delle Dolomiti, it seems more likely that "Ivanhoe" was in a 1900C rather than in a 1900TI and it seems also likely that Camillo Luglio was in yet a different car with race #54 as he is shown in the results.

The photo of "Ivanhoe" in 1953 in race #78 is probably showing him at the Coppa dei Laghi (Roma) 15 March 1953 where he was first in the GT 2000 category.

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post #12 of 46 (permalink) Old 02-09-2014, 01:14 AM Thread Starter
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Rossi 347 GdS 1952
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post #13 of 46 (permalink) Old 02-09-2014, 10:07 AM Thread Starter
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John. You are absolutely right. More questions than answers.

According to the book „Millenove”
qoute
„Lt. Internen aufzeichnungen von Alfa Romeo werden sieben Corto Gara gebaut, aber vielleicht aush acht?
According to internal Alfa Romeo blueprints , seven Corto Gara vehicles where built, maybe even eight. The first three were taken from the existing Touring programme, which meant they did not have the split windscreen. Touring build an other four coupes with special body. “

It confirms, what I regarded, as general knowledge, over many years. That 7 cars where build.
The book “1900 Sprint” by Gonzalo Garcia doesn’t give any numbers.
To me it doesn’t mean anything whether it was 7-8 or 10.As there would probably be new attempt to build “Alliggeritta” or race prepared 1900 Sprints. After this first 7? .
To me, the 7, they was all with split front screen, as pictured in the Garcia book.
So the information, in the Millenove book. About 2 different “type”( or more) of Corto Gara, made me queries.

“quote you John” Your comments about the Alfa Romeo squad being inexperienced in racing is simply not true. Yes, they had to adapt the knowledge they already had to cars without separate chassis.”

You are talking about apple and pears.
2 different things. To build a body to a stiff chassis, witch eventually had the engine bolted in the chassis to ad stiffness.
Than to build a body to a platform, as the Corto 1900. It doesn’t have the regity, so it is an experience, to lean where to ad or remove or change the dimensions of the tubes.

To me these “steps” in preparation, indicate they where learning have they should handle, the incoming experience with the platform , and have they should implement these experience.
I am just trying to se have they adopt new knowledge into platform development.
And I do fully agree, that there “COULD” have been differences, between the bodies.
But if we shall handle a number of cars, that we don’t , know, its necessary to group to get some general picture, at lest to me.

Thank you for the info about Zehender in MM 1953 with car chassis 1028.

Regarding Ivanhoe-Avario. Car nr 69 Coppa del d’Oro Dooemiti.
Thank you for catching up on this. It was just my thoughts, that it is Ivanhoe in car 69.
It is a picture that has been fluting around in the web for at least 10 years. So a lot of stories can have been connected to the picture
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post #14 of 46 (permalink) Old 02-09-2014, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp View Post
„Lt. Internen aufzeichnungen von Alfa Romeo werden sieben Corto Gara gebaut, aber vielleicht aush acht?
According to internal Alfa Romeo blueprints , seven Corto Gara vehicles where built, maybe even eight.
Just a minor correction: The translation of Aufzeichnungen is records, not blueprints (which would be drawings).

-Ruedi
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post #15 of 46 (permalink) Old 02-09-2014, 12:22 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry, Tubut. Please read the book.
I didnt, make the translation.
the author did, I think.
The book is written in English and German. I just copied the text.
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